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add last meeting minutes and IRC logs
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‎minutes/2018-12-11.irc.log

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2018-12-11 20:02:26 ~japaric ok, then let's start the meeting right away
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2018-12-11 20:02:39 ~japaric first a few reminders
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2018-12-11 20:02:43 ~japaric there's some PRs waiting for review
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2018-12-11 20:02:50 ~japaric T-resources: r? https://github.com/rust-embedded/showcase/pull/5
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2018-12-11 20:02:55 ~japaric T-tools: r? https://github.com/rust-embedded/cargo-binutils/pull/37
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2018-12-11 20:03:07 @therealprof Sorry for being late.
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2018-12-11 20:03:10 ~japaric also, the infra team is setting up the team e-mails!
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2018-12-11 20:03:15 @therealprof (and having to leave early)
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2018-12-11 20:03:29 ~japaric so please coordinate with your team and send the list of e-mails to the infra team
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2018-12-11 20:03:38 ~japaric more details at https://github.com/orgs/rust-embedded/teams/all/discussions/9
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2018-12-11 20:03:55 ~japaric adamgreig had an announcement about the stm32-rs org; want to do the announcement now or at the end?
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2018-12-11 20:04:02 @adamgreig now is fine, thanks
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2018-12-11 20:04:04 @adamgreig we have set up stm32-rs
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2018-12-11 20:04:12 ~japaric \o/
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2018-12-11 20:04:14 @adamgreig to host various stm32 rust repos etc
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2018-12-11 20:04:17 ryankurte awesome!
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2018-12-11 20:04:21 @adamgreig if anyone is interested in beign involved please shout and i will invite you
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2018-12-11 20:04:21 @therealprof \o/
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2018-12-11 20:04:28 @adamgreig exact details of how the org will run etc are tbc
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2018-12-11 20:04:42 @adamgreig for now we have a bunch of the stm32 hal crates and the stm32-rs device crate repo
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2018-12-11 20:04:51 @therealprof Got a lot of stuff already and a lot more to more soon.
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2018-12-11 20:05:00 @therealprof *come
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2018-12-11 20:05:04 ~japaric exciting!
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2018-12-11 20:05:10 @adamgreig in related news stm32-rs 0.5 should be out soon with svd2rust 0.14 support
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2018-12-11 20:06:01 @jamesmunns (I'm in a call so i'll be in and out, but nrf-rs 0.6 also released with 2018/0.14.0 :D )
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2018-12-11 20:06:16 ~japaric jamesmunns: awesome
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2018-12-11 20:06:20 @therealprof adamgreig: With the f1 USB fixes? ;9
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2018-12-11 20:06:22 @therealprof ;)
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2018-12-11 20:06:31 @adamgreig yea I'm going to try and get those and the other erported issues in first
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2018-12-11 20:06:41 ~japaric ok, I think that concludes the announcements and reminders section
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2018-12-11 20:06:46 @adamgreig thanks
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2018-12-11 20:07:04 @therealprof +1
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2018-12-11 20:07:14 ~japaric adamgreig: (might want to mention the stm32-rs org in the next newsletter)
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2018-12-11 20:07:30 ~japaric let's now triage the leftover edition items
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2018-12-11 20:07:33 @jamesmunns japaric: he's added it, I hope to do a catch-up newsletter this week
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2018-12-11 20:07:45 ~japaric jamesmunns: +1
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2018-12-11 20:08:00 ~japaric svd2rust 0.14.0 has been released so I think issues 1 and 2 should now be unblocked
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2018-12-11 20:08:18 ~japaric iirc, issue 1 was about documenting #[interrupt]
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2018-12-11 20:08:22 ~japaric so I have created an issue
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2018-12-11 20:08:40 ~japaric https://github.com/rust-embedded/book/issues/98
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2018-12-11 20:08:58 ~japaric and I don't remember what the TODO was for issue 2
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2018-12-11 20:09:01 ~japaric examples?
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2018-12-11 20:09:16 @therealprof Yeah.
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2018-12-11 20:09:23 @therealprof Mind if I take #98?
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2018-12-11 20:09:37 ~japaric therealprof: sure, I already assigned it to you ;-)
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2018-12-11 20:09:43 @therealprof Hah!
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2018-12-11 20:10:13 ~japaric I created an issue for the HAL examples https://github.com/rust-embedded/book/issues/99
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2018-12-11 20:10:39 @therealprof Where would they go?
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2018-12-11 20:10:42 ~japaric jamesmunns: therealprof: if you can fill in what the examples should be about that'd be great
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2018-12-11 20:10:54 ~japaric fill in the issue**
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2018-12-11 20:11:05 ~japaric therealprof: "they" = HAL examples? or?
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2018-12-11 20:11:21 @therealprof Do we want abstract or concrete examples?
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2018-12-11 20:12:04 @therealprof Yes. they == HAL examples
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2018-12-11 20:12:34 ~japaric I think at some point we mentioned at least listing examples of PAC, HAL-impl crates, driver crates, i.e. names and links
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2018-12-11 20:12:46 ~japaric but I think we should also show some code using them
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2018-12-11 20:13:33 ~japaric re: where; they should go under the portability chapter https://rust-embedded.github.io/book/portability/index.html
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2018-12-11 20:14:06 @therealprof Okay.
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2018-12-11 20:14:13 @therealprof Will try to come up with something.
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2018-12-11 20:14:26 ~japaric therealprof: thanks!
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2018-12-11 20:15:34 ~japaric moving on, issues 3 and 4 are done
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2018-12-11 20:15:37 ~japaric I'll remove them
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2018-12-11 20:15:55 ~japaric ryankurte: any news regarding the debugonomicon?
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2018-12-11 20:16:15 ryankurte no changes since last time I think
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2018-12-11 20:16:54 ~japaric ok, but there's plenty of help wanted issues
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2018-12-11 20:17:13 ~japaric hopefully the next newsletter will bring in some new contributors
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2018-12-11 20:18:09 ~japaric last issue is the showcase
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2018-12-11 20:18:16 ~japaric there's a PR up for review
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2018-12-11 20:19:00 ~japaric and two TODO issues before we can start taking project submissions
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2018-12-11 20:20:11 ~japaric not sure I will have the time for them this week though
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2018-12-11 20:20:46 ~japaric next item in the agenda is the code snippet for the embedded webpage
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2018-12-11 20:21:00 ~japaric there's been more suggestions since last week
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2018-12-11 20:21:13 ~japaric but I think they are too long
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2018-12-11 20:21:40 ~japaric the snippets on the other pages are a bit over 10 LoC
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2018-12-11 20:21:49 @therealprof They could certainly be shortened, but I think it'll lose the message we're trying to convey.
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2018-12-11 20:22:04 @adamgreig I am pro very short snippets
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2018-12-11 20:22:07 @adamgreig we can link to longer examples
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2018-12-11 20:22:18 @adamgreig but it looks bad on a nice webpage to have a full page height of code
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2018-12-11 20:22:21 @adamgreig no one's going to read that
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2018-12-11 20:22:52 @adamgreig a very short example that shows off some basic things, even if it omits some preamble and boilerplate, is better, I think
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2018-12-11 20:22:56 @therealprof Yeah, but there's like at least 7 lines of boilerplate. And in three lines you're not going to get a lot done.
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2018-12-11 20:23:04 @adamgreig so drop the boilerplate
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2018-12-11 20:23:10 @adamgreig we don't need to see all the 'extern' and 'use' and etc
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2018-12-11 20:23:21 @therealprof Then you don't have functional examples.
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2018-12-11 20:23:31 @adamgreig fine
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2018-12-11 20:23:41 @adamgreig you can't copy them into your text editor and click 'run' anyway, you need a cargo.toml and a memory.x and etc etc etc
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2018-12-11 20:23:57 @adamgreig I'd rather there be a link to 'full example' or wahtever that has a full crate set up you can clone (a la stm32f4-demo)
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2018-12-11 20:23:59 @therealprof I don't thing we should have snippets that are a good deal away from running.
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2018-12-11 20:24:04 @adamgreig and the website snippet itself just highlights the interesting points
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2018-12-11 20:24:19 @thejpster adamgreig: Yes, this.
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2018-12-11 20:24:21 @adamgreig I think the point we want to make is 'check out these really nice things in embedded rust'
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2018-12-11 20:24:29 @adamgreig rather than 'here's a long piece of code that you must dig through to find the golden nuggets'
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2018-12-11 20:24:37 @therealprof Sure.
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2018-12-11 20:24:54 @adamgreig I'm less sure what those nice things are though - static variables in a function scope are not going to blow a c programmer's mind
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2018-12-11 20:24:59 @adamgreig that's just regular c
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2018-12-11 20:25:12 @therealprof I think the abstractions are incredibly nice.
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2018-12-11 20:25:12 @adamgreig likewise interrupt handlers in c are just functions with the right name, so again it's not a surprise (much as it's nice for us)
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2018-12-11 20:25:36 @adamgreig yes I wonder if we want to just show off a hal or what
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2018-12-11 20:25:47 @therealprof Not sure how to convey the safety and stuff.
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2018-12-11 20:25:56 @therealprof Especially if we dumb it all down.
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2018-12-11 20:26:01 @adamgreig some of that just has to be in prose I guess
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2018-12-11 20:26:03 ryankurte i think the hal is a huge advantage / worth showing off
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2018-12-11 20:26:19 ryankurte oh right, _just_, soz
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2018-12-11 20:26:22 @therealprof If I were new to Rust I wouldn't be excited about basic register banging.
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2018-12-11 20:26:48 ~japaric how about a short example of creating a driver that shows move semantics?
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2018-12-11 20:27:00 @adamgreig that could be cool
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2018-12-11 20:27:05 @therealprof Not sure what you mean.
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2018-12-11 20:27:08 @adamgreig I like the idea of a snippet that is short and shows off one neat thing well
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2018-12-11 20:27:12 ryankurte creating = wiring up?
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2018-12-11 20:27:14 @therealprof And I'm afraid I have to go. ;)
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2018-12-11 20:27:16 @adamgreig even if it doesn't show off every nice thing in the infrastructure
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2018-12-11 20:27:30 ~japaric as in https://gist.github.com/japaric/34040a0be72cb3e67885253864295efb
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2018-12-11 20:27:34 @therealprof bye everyone…
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2018-12-11 20:27:40 @adamgreig seeya
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2018-12-11 20:27:45 ryankurte byeee
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2018-12-11 20:27:53 hannobraun bye
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2018-12-11 20:28:08 ryankurte japaric: something like that seems good to me
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2018-12-11 20:28:15 @adamgreig hmm
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2018-12-11 20:28:30 @adamgreig sort of that but I'd want it to be clearer that nss is sort of a singleton
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2018-12-11 20:28:43 @adamgreig like, show that you can get the pin objects _once_, and then _move_ them
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2018-12-11 20:28:48 @adamgreig so you just can't write code that uses pins it shouldn't already own
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2018-12-11 20:28:49 ryankurte especially if it can head off / explain some of the move semantic battles that anyone new to rust (or maybe anyone using rust ime) will have
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2018-12-11 20:29:01 @adamgreig haha yes
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2018-12-11 20:29:06 @adamgreig definitely not just people new to rust :p
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2018-12-11 20:29:22 @adamgreig love moving pins back into my higher-scoped variables i just moved out of to return them to the previous type for the next iteration of my loop or wahtever
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2018-12-11 20:29:28 ryankurte i swear some days i look forward to writing c
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2018-12-11 20:29:42 @adamgreig only a fleeting feeling hopefully :p
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2018-12-11 20:29:47 ~japaric we are at the half hour mark
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2018-12-11 20:29:57 ~japaric let's continue the discussion of the snippets in the issue
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2018-12-11 20:30:05 ryankurte +1
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2018-12-11 20:30:07 @adamgreig +1
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2018-12-11 20:30:13 ~japaric but let's try to make a decision by next week
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2018-12-11 20:31:26 ~japaric ok, let's move to the next item on the agenda
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2018-12-11 20:31:34 ~japaric 2019 roadmap planning
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2018-12-11 20:32:11 ~japaric here's the list of requests from the 2019 wishlist survey: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HfVfSDTVD3Ao45_St1KkUyBe6M0vP6HjA2T-Xrc-E1Q/edit#gid=0
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2018-12-11 20:32:25 ~japaric I noticed that most of them are actually stuff that needs to happen in one of the rust-lang/* repos
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2018-12-11 20:32:42 ~japaric so we should try to prioritize those requests
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2018-12-11 20:32:52 ~japaric I'm not sure all of them can be done in one year
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2018-12-11 20:33:12 @adamgreig definitely a big variation in how much work they are too
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2018-12-11 20:33:46 ~japaric I think that at the very least we should identify "must be done in 2019" requests
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2018-12-11 20:34:09 @adamgreig and make that the list of things to work on in 2019?
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2018-12-11 20:34:44 ~japaric not necessarily
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2018-12-11 20:35:07 ~japaric we should bring a list of prioritized requests to the rust teams during the all hands and then we can discuss what can be done in the span of a year
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2018-12-11 20:35:35 @adamgreig ok
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2018-12-11 20:36:59 ~japaric any suggestion for how to prioritize the items on the list?
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2018-12-11 20:37:12 ~japaric one metric is the number of upvotes in the thread
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2018-12-11 20:37:38 @adamgreig that's not a bad starting point
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2018-12-11 20:37:45 @thejpster What resources do we have to commit? I mean, an issue someone cares about and will actually do is more likely to get done than one that we all love, but no-one wants to do.
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2018-12-11 20:37:46 @adamgreig I worry we could spend an hour just bikeshedding priorities
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2018-12-11 20:38:07 @thejpster I mean, I'm doing #9 already.
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2018-12-11 20:38:25 @adamgreig whereas I'm sure we might enjoy 7 but no one is volunteering :p
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2018-12-11 20:38:30 @adamgreig uh, 18
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2018-12-11 20:38:38 @adamgreig 7 is fine :p
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2018-12-11 20:39:29 @adamgreig gosh, it really is mostly rust-lang issues
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2018-12-11 20:39:51 ~japaric I meant prioritization of stuff that needs to happen in rust-lang/*
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2018-12-11 20:40:21 @adamgreig can't think of any way that's materially better than votes from the issue
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2018-12-11 20:40:43 @adamgreig we could have votes from wg members or discuss each one a bit to see if any are silly or whatever but for most of them I just don't know how much work would be involved or who would do it etc
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2018-12-11 20:41:10 @adamgreig japaric: fwiw I think the filtered view doesn't sort the Who column
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2018-12-11 20:41:28 @thejpster I gotta run. I'll catch up in 40 minutes when I get home.
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2018-12-11 20:42:02 ~japaric adamgreig: it should now
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2018-12-11 20:42:09 @adamgreig thanks
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2018-12-11 20:42:16 @adamgreig other issue with votes is the earlier issues have more votes
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2018-12-11 20:42:30 @adamgreig there's not really an overriding theme here either
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2018-12-11 20:42:34 @adamgreig just a sort of grab bag of things we'd like
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2018-12-11 20:43:12 ~japaric in any case, we won't know how much work is needed or who has to do the work until we talk with the rust teams at the all hands so I think we should prioritize on perceived impact rather than on amount of work required
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2018-12-11 20:43:16 @adamgreig for rust-lang do we maybe pick like 10 top issues, vaguely by votes but editorialised by us or something, and put them forward at the all hands?
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2018-12-11 20:43:24 @adamgreig makes sense
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2018-12-11 20:44:10 ~japaric adamgreig: seems like a good starting point
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2018-12-11 20:44:24 ~japaric let's continue this discussion on a GH issue
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2018-12-11 20:44:27 @adamgreig ok
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2018-12-11 20:44:31 ~japaric so other members can comment
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2018-12-11 20:44:47 ~japaric adamgreig: could I ask you to make an issue for it?
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2018-12-11 20:44:55 @adamgreig sure
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2018-12-11 20:44:59 ~japaric adamgreig: thanks!
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2018-12-11 20:45:33 ~japaric next item is per team roadmap
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2018-12-11 20:46:16 ~japaric so apart from the rust-lang/* requests I think each team should make a roadmap or rather a list of things they want to get done this year
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2018-12-11 20:46:55 ~japaric the roadmap should take into account the wishlist survery; though there's not much for teams other than resources and the hypothetical libs team
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2018-12-11 20:47:41 @adamgreig yea, I guess the things for other teams are usually less visible
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2018-12-11 20:47:53 @adamgreig or are just good ideas that pop into your head and you implement in c-m-rt, japaric :p
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2018-12-11 20:48:11 ~japaric :-)
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2018-12-11 20:48:13 @adamgreig an issue per-team to collate roadmaps?
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2018-12-11 20:48:31 ~japaric yes, I think we should do that
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2018-12-11 20:48:45 ~japaric the roadamp should include planned work for the repos under the team
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2018-12-11 20:49:02 ~japaric and leftover edition issues where applicable
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2018-12-11 20:49:09 ~japaric e.g. core::arch::arm for the cortex-m team
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2018-12-11 20:49:47 @adamgreig yes, there's a bunch of c-m things we took shortcutes on for stable release that we can hopefully revisit or tidy up
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2018-12-11 20:50:01 @adamgreig like the prebuilt object files and the code optimisation for bss and so forth
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2018-12-11 20:50:40 ~japaric yep, so I think we should start with brainstorming a list of things we could work on
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2018-12-11 20:50:51 @adamgreig can I put the 2019 wishlist spreadsheet link on the gh issue?
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2018-12-11 20:50:52 ~japaric then we can make a decision and / or prioritize
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2018-12-11 20:51:16 ~japaric adamgreig: yes, that ok
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2018-12-11 20:51:28 ~japaric the link is view-only
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2018-12-11 20:52:43 ~japaric let's make one issue per team to start discussing the roadmap
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2018-12-11 20:53:09 @adamgreig ok
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2018-12-11 20:53:13 @adamgreig I'll make a cortex-m and resources issue
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2018-12-11 20:53:25 ~japaric adamgreig: thanks!
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2018-12-11 20:53:25 @adamgreig or all of them, whatever
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2018-12-11 20:53:30 ~japaric adamgreig: <3
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2018-12-11 20:54:17 ~japaric last item on the agenda: end of year break
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2018-12-11 20:54:40 ~japaric I propose we skip the meetings on Dec 25 and Jan 1
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2018-12-11 20:54:45 @adamgreig +1
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2018-12-11 20:54:51 @adamgreig I'll also be away next week
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2018-12-11 20:54:58 ~japaric so next meeting would be the last on of the year; we meet next time on Jan 8
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2018-12-11 20:55:13 hannobraun +1, wouldn't have made it anyway
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2018-12-11 20:55:26 ryankurte +1
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2018-12-11 20:55:56 ~japaric I'll mention this break again during the next meeting
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2018-12-11 20:56:04 ~japaric 5 mins left; anything else you'd like to share?
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2018-12-11 20:57:05 ryankurte There are a couple of new issues on embedded-hal I'm not really sure how to respond to, might be worth a look by y'all
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2018-12-11 20:57:40 ryankurte I closed one just before as off-topic / directed them to the right place.
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2018-12-11 20:57:59 hannobraun I've seen them. Didn't respond either. Kinda would have taken more spare cycles than I have right now.
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2018-12-11 20:58:21 ryankurte yeah fair, i can politely respond and close just didn't want to overstep.
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2018-12-11 20:59:07 hannobraun Well, my opinion is, if you're handling it and noone else is, you're not overstepping :)
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2018-12-11 20:59:54 ryankurte cool cool cool
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2018-12-11 21:01:30 ~japaric :bell: the meeting is officially over. Thanks everyone for attending! Have a great week and see some of you next week

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