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2018-12-18 20:03:31 ~japaric ok, let's start this meeting
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2018-12-18 20:03:41 ~japaric first some announcement and reminders
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2018-12-18 20:03:58 ~japaric there will *not* be a meeting next week or the week after; next meeting is on January 8
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2018-12-18 20:04:41 ~japaric there's a bunch of new discussion on the GH issue tracker; they are listed on the dropbox paper
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2018-12-18 20:05:06 ~japaric so if you feel like doing WG stuff during the end of year break comment on those
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2018-12-18 20:05:52 ~japaric korken89: you wanted to get some input on #281; want to cover that now or at the end?
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2018-12-18 20:06:31 @korken89 Maybe at the end? I'm getting my notes on it
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2018-12-18 20:06:37 ~japaric korken89: sure
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2018-12-18 20:06:41 @korken89 Thanks
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2018-12-18 20:07:01 @theJPster sorry I'm late
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2018-12-18 20:07:05 ~japaric theJPster: o/
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2018-12-18 20:07:47 ~japaric next up: leftover 2018 issues
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2018-12-18 20:07:58 ~japaric therealprof: I saw a pr for the #[interrupt] stuff. :+1:
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2018-12-18 20:08:26 @therealprof Yes. Was able to rework a number of crates, too.
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2018-12-18 20:08:28 @korken89 It was a great start, only had some minor comments on it :)
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2018-12-18 20:09:01 @therealprof korken89: That's a nice way of saying you didn't like japarics text copied from the exceptions section. :-D
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2018-12-18 20:09:08 @korken89 Hehe
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2018-12-18 20:09:09 @korken89 Shhh
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2018-12-18 20:09:50 @korken89 I have as an aim over a few evenings to make a full reread of the book
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2018-12-18 20:09:50 ~japaric :-)
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2018-12-18 20:10:18 @korken89 I think it is time to start looking at the whole a bit, starting to become a lot :)
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2018-12-18 20:10:33 ~japaric korken89: I agree
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2018-12-18 20:10:39 @jamesmunns +1!
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2018-12-18 20:10:41 ~japaric I should give it a re-read too
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2018-12-18 20:11:11 ~japaric I think there are no other updates on the 2018 leftovers
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2018-12-18 20:11:30 ~japaric jamesmunns: how's the book in rust-lang/rust PR doing?
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2018-12-18 20:12:05 @jamesmunns No progress from last week, current status is that I have multiple mdbook versions coexisting happily, but the print.html renders bad relative links
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2018-12-18 20:12:06 ~japaric iirc, I saw something interesting Cargo.toml hacks
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2018-12-18 20:12:22 @jamesmunns in the embedded repo, we ignore print.html in the linkchecker
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2018-12-18 20:12:42 @jamesmunns however they would like things to be right for the upstream docs
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2018-12-18 20:12:52 @jamesmunns so I need to do one of the following:
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2018-12-18 20:13:04 @jamesmunns 1. find a new way to use links in the embedded book
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2018-12-18 20:13:17 @jamesmunns 2. teach mdbook the right way to render relative links in the print page
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2018-12-18 20:13:34 @jamesmunns 3. customize the build step to post-process the print.html file to correct things
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2018-12-18 20:14:02 @jamesmunns Very open to other options, I plan to dig into the mdbook source a bit to see if I can fix-fix it, otherwise will probably go with 1 or 3.
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2018-12-18 20:14:28 ~japaric wasn't the problem in mdbook, itself? I think there was an issue about it (print.html)
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2018-12-18 20:14:41 * cr1901 is here in the background
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2018-12-18 20:14:44 @jamesmunns the Cargo.toml hacks were interesting :) I didn't realize you could use the dependency rename feature to include two versions of the same crate in one project :D
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2018-12-18 20:14:44 cr1901 whoops
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2018-12-18 20:15:06 @jamesmunns the problem is in mdbook.
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2018-12-18 20:15:19 @korken89 Sorry for not quite following, does different parts of the book need different versions of mdbook?
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2018-12-18 20:15:20 @jamesmunns option 1 is a workaround
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2018-12-18 20:15:31 @therealprof japaric: Speaking about the book, I noticed that there's some rendered crate docs stores somewhere.
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2018-12-18 20:15:36 @jamesmunns korken89: the other rust books rely on behavior in mdbook 0.1.x
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2018-12-18 20:15:47 @jamesmunns while the embedded book relies on behavior in mdbook 0.2.x
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2018-12-18 20:15:56 @therealprof The interrupt section links to that but it's too old to use for the #[exception] attribute.
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2018-12-18 20:16:08 @korken89 Ah okey, thanks
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2018-12-18 20:16:09 @jamesmunns so, my PR makes both of them exist, and you can set which version to use for each book
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2018-12-18 20:16:15 @therealprof Is there any reason we don't link to docs.rs?
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2018-12-18 20:16:20 @jamesmunns because updating all the other books would be a pretty big change
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2018-12-18 20:16:44 @jamesmunns PR changes, if anyone is interested: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/56291/files
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2018-12-18 20:16:50 @jamesmunns you can see my Cargo.toml hackery :D
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2018-12-18 20:17:54 ~japaric therealprof: you mean there are links to rust-embedded.github.io that could instead point to docs.rs?
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2018-12-18 20:17:57 @jamesmunns I've been pulled off focusing on some (sadly non-embedded) work stuff, hoping again to get this worked on this week
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2018-12-18 20:18:03 @therealprof Yes.
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2018-12-18 20:18:45 ~japaric docs.rs was kind of broken when we were working on the book so that may have been the reason; we should use docs.rs now that it has more maintainers
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2018-12-18 20:19:39 ~japaric therealprof: want to make an issue about updating the links? or you could directly make a pr if there aren't too many links
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2018-12-18 20:19:55 @therealprof japaric: Will do.
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2018-12-18 20:20:00 ~japaric therealprof: thanks
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2018-12-18 20:20:26 ~japaric jamesmunns: thanks for the update on the book pr
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2018-12-18 20:20:44 ~japaric let's move onto the next issue: code snippets on the embedded webpage
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2018-12-18 20:21:35 ~japaric I think there's agreement for using short snippets that may not compile out of the box
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2018-12-18 20:21:49 @jamesmunns +1
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2018-12-18 20:21:51 cr1901 +1
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2018-12-18 20:21:52 ~japaric but there's still no consensus on what to highlight
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2018-12-18 20:21:55 @jamesmunns happy with "real-ish"
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2018-12-18 20:22:01 ~japaric the issue: https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/259
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2018-12-18 20:22:12 @korken89 +1
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2018-12-18 20:22:32 ~japaric the short examples are https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/259#issuecomment-446315435 (LED & exception)
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2018-12-18 20:22:42 ~japaric and https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/259#issuecomment-446331189 (HAL & move semantics)
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2018-12-18 20:23:22 @jamesmunns something like the main body of https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/259#issuecomment-445155459 looks good to me
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2018-12-18 20:23:28 @theJPster I like the HAL/move semantics one. I think it's best to avoid interrupts, as doing it right is complicated.
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2018-12-18 20:24:14 @jamesmunns For a first visit, I don't think we have to focus on teaching
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2018-12-18 20:24:19 @theJPster the snippet jamesmunns mentions is also good.
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2018-12-18 20:24:24 @jamesmunns Just showing them what it looks like, and not scaring them off
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2018-12-18 20:24:35 @jamesmunns I think it would be cool to have a "guided tour" section of the book
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2018-12-18 20:25:02 @jamesmunns Where we have a bunch of snippets like this, which introduce the syntax, and how to handle stuff like interrupts or ownership
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2018-12-18 20:25:12 @jamesmunns I guess that's really just all the examples in the book already
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2018-12-18 20:25:22 ~japaric "embedded Rust by example"?
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2018-12-18 20:25:28 @jamesmunns yeah, pretty much that
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2018-12-18 20:25:44 @jamesmunns Far be it from me to suggest another book :D
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2018-12-18 20:25:46 @therealprof Getting tons of getting started questions from new contributors at the moment. Will try to extract some FAQ and general guidance out of that.
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2018-12-18 20:26:01 @jamesmunns therealprof: awesome, from the stm-rs repos?
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2018-12-18 20:26:08 @therealprof Yeah.
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2018-12-18 20:26:49 @therealprof Folks are actually requesting another discovery like book but on a more entry level.
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2018-12-18 20:26:51 @theJPster The feedback I had from my embedded training was that the HAL crate docs where great for telling you what stuff did, but useless for helping you work out which function you need on which object.
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2018-12-18 20:26:54 @korken89 Ah, I have not kept up to date with stm-rs - need to take a look at that
2018-12-18 20:27:45 @theJPster Going from "set this GPIO pin high" to working out you need to call split, then into_push_pull, and then set_high (which is defined in another crate entirely).
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2018-12-18 20:28:00 @jamesmunns therealprof: like the embeddonomicon?
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2018-12-18 20:28:03 ~japaric therealprof: I think it may be best to open an issue in /hal and have the hal team comment on it
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2018-12-18 20:28:11 ~japaric (re common questions)
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2018-12-18 20:29:18 ~japaric oops, I think we went too off topic
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2018-12-18 20:29:31 @therealprof No worries, I'm trying to channel the momentum into appropriate lanes. :-D
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2018-12-18 20:30:12 ~japaric should we go ahead and use therealprof's led snippet?
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2018-12-18 20:30:25 @therealprof I have a question about doctests whenever people feel like it.
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2018-12-18 20:30:26 ~japaric (just the main function probably)
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2018-12-18 20:30:44 @korken89 Blink a led is a must :)
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2018-12-18 20:31:09 @therealprof Oh, there's an updated version of the LED blink with the delay function using toggle, it's a few lines shorter. ;)
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2018-12-18 20:31:39 @therealprof (and compiles to a vastly smaller binary, too, for reasons unknown)
2018-12-18 20:33:05 ~japaric therealprof: could you slim down the example to around 10 lines and post in the GH issue?
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2018-12-18 20:33:12 @korken89 Read-modify-write combination is not exception safe without interrupt::free
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2018-12-18 20:33:37 ~japaric I think we are happy with the blinky example; what should be the other snippet about?
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2018-12-18 20:33:48 @korken89 Just thinking if it's an issue, else I'm not against using toggle
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2018-12-18 20:33:57 @therealprof japaric: Will do.
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2018-12-18 20:34:01 @korken89 Simple snippets are important
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2018-12-18 20:34:43 ~japaric therealprof: thanks
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2018-12-18 20:34:45 @therealprof korken89: Depends on the implementation if it's "unsafe" or not.
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2018-12-18 20:35:24 ~japaric should the other snippet be about a hal driver? saying in a comment that we didn't write the driver; just the hal implementation or something like that
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2018-12-18 20:35:49 @korken89 therealprof: Indeed, just putting the thought out there
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2018-12-18 20:35:51 @jamesmunns I've been using the DigitalOutput trait as an example in lots of places
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2018-12-18 20:36:19 @jamesmunns Might tie into the demo, and act as a conversation piece towards what is possible with embedded hal abstractions?
2018-12-18 20:37:53 ~japaric jamesmunns: but there are no drivers (afaik) that only use DigitalOutput; what should the other example highlight?
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2018-12-18 20:38:04 @jamesmunns Maybe https://github.com/rust-embedded/embedded-hal/blob/master/src/digital/v2.rs#L3-L19 - with slightly reduced/modified comments?
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2018-12-18 20:38:05 @therealprof jamesmunns: Which kind of driver did you have in mind?
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2018-12-18 20:38:22 @jamesmunns Sorry, I was proposing not having a driver as the other example
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2018-12-18 20:38:24 @therealprof japaric: Hm? There're a few.
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2018-12-18 20:38:32 @jamesmunns instead just the trait definition
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2018-12-18 20:38:41 @jamesmunns to keep it silly-simple for the first introl
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2018-12-18 20:38:54 @jamesmunns So the focus is less on the syntax of rust (though it shows that a little)
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2018-12-18 20:39:11 @jamesmunns and more on what you can do with rust (write non-implementation-specific drivers)
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2018-12-18 20:40:53 @therealprof jamesmunns: Hm, I'd have to sleep over it. I have plenty of ideas but nothing that I think would fit in that format.
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2018-12-18 20:42:26 ~japaric jamesmunns: I see what you mean but I don't think that DigitalOutput is a particularly good example -- something like I2C or SPI may make the idea easier to grasp, IMO
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2018-12-18 20:42:45 @jamesmunns Open to that as well, as long as the trait bounds don't get too verbose
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2018-12-18 20:42:49 @therealprof I agree.
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2018-12-18 20:42:56 ryankurte +1
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2018-12-18 20:43:23 @jamesmunns Oh sorry, it's usually the driver implementor that has crazy trait/generic items
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2018-12-18 20:43:33 ~japaric jamesmunns: could you post your idea on the GH issue? let's discuss it online
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2018-12-18 20:43:42 @jamesmunns sounds good :)
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2018-12-18 20:44:02 @jamesmunns https://ferrous-systems.github.io/rustconf-james-2018/#/61 is an example I've used that makes a lot of sense if you're familiar with Rust, but less if generics and traits are new to you
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2018-12-18 20:44:23 ~japaric next item on the agenda: 2019 roadmap
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2018-12-18 20:45:12 ~japaric just wanted to point out that there's an issue for prioritizing rust-lang/rust requests
2018-12-18 20:45:24 @theJPster what do you want us to do with that issue?
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2018-12-18 20:46:42 ~japaric if you have thoughts on how to prioritize the items you can comment there
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2018-12-18 20:47:40 ~japaric if someone can post the top voted items on the issue we can discuss there if you agree with the community perceived importance
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2018-12-18 20:47:45 @theJPster Ah, it sounded like you wanted us to actually prioritise them in the comments somehow, and I wasn't sure what I was expected to say.
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2018-12-18 20:48:11 ~japaric and if there's something that's not in the top 10 items but you think it's important then you can also comment over there
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2018-12-18 20:50:30 ~japaric there's also one planning issue for each team; let's discuss the roadmap online and then try to summarize it by the next meeting (Jan 8)
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2018-12-18 20:51:04 ~japaric korken89: I think now it's a good time for the issue that you wanted input on
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2018-12-18 20:51:15 @korken89 Right
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2018-12-18 20:51:24 ~japaric (before we run out of time :P)
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2018-12-18 20:51:29 @korken89 If people have read it, most ideas are in
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2018-12-18 20:51:55 ~japaric issue in question is https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/281
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2018-12-18 20:52:01 @korken89 Since I come from the heavy metaprogramming of C++, and the embedded C++ community is heavily based there
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2018-12-18 20:52:15 @korken89 A lot don't like it as well, but do not see any alternative
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2018-12-18 20:52:28 @korken89 So I'd like to give them a talk to show that Rust can compete there
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2018-12-18 20:52:54 @jamesmunns my macro/proc macro game is weak, but I am working on it :D
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2018-12-18 20:52:58 @korken89 But I am no expert on proc-macros
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2018-12-18 20:53:16 @korken89 I have learned enough to get attributes and derives
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2018-12-18 20:53:23 @korken89 But free syntax proc macros are a beast
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2018-12-18 20:53:25 ~japaric I don't know what C++ people use metaprogramming for
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2018-12-18 20:53:39 @korken89 I wrote all of RTFM in metaprogramming :)
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2018-12-18 20:53:48 @therealprof You don't want to know. :-p
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2018-12-18 20:53:52 @jamesmunns neither do I, especially in embedded use cases
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2018-12-18 20:54:05 @korken89 kvasir::register is a really good example
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2018-12-18 20:54:12 @korken89 How to optimize volatile register read/writes
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2018-12-18 20:54:16 @korken89 Safely
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2018-12-18 20:54:24 @korken89 boost::sml
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2018-12-18 20:54:32 @korken89 How to write statemachines using UML syntax
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2018-12-18 20:54:38 @korken89 With compile time error checking
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2018-12-18 20:54:54 @korken89 There is a lot in the library space :)
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2018-12-18 20:55:04 @korken89 The magic in the background
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2018-12-18 20:55:09 @korken89 Buut
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2018-12-18 20:55:33 @korken89 What I'm looking for is someone with a bit more proc-macro experience to talk with
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2018-12-18 20:55:39 @jamesmunns Maybe focus on the cool stuff you can do with Spans to give better error messages when the macro doesn't like the input?
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2018-12-18 20:56:06 @korken89 Exactly
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2018-12-18 20:56:10 @jamesmunns Might not be a whole talk, but might go on the list
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2018-12-18 20:56:14 @korken89 Indeed
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2018-12-18 20:56:26 @korken89 Especially to show that the code generated is very good as well
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2018-12-18 20:56:39 @korken89 One of the major usecases it to make DSLs in C++
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2018-12-18 20:56:51 @korken89 To give optimize what the optimizer can't understand
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2018-12-18 20:57:10 @korken89 /give/
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2018-12-18 20:57:39 @korken89 So if people that have worked with some proc macros have some good examples as well, please put a comment on it
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2018-12-18 20:57:49 @korken89 I can convert Rust code to metaprogramming as well
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2018-12-18 20:57:54 @korken89 To have comparisons
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2018-12-18 20:58:00 @jamesmunns I'm a more C kind of background person, you're making me think of stuff like Xmacros in C
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2018-12-18 20:58:10 @korken89 Hehe
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2018-12-18 20:58:18 ~japaric I can't think of any proc-macro that aims for optimization; they usually aim for boilerplate reduction
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2018-12-18 20:58:18 @therealprof I've come to start hating proc macros.
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