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Merge pull request #218 from nikomatsakis/2019-11-16-wg-retro
add minutes from 2019-11-16 meeting
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---
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title: Working Group Retrospective
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type: docs
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---
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# Working Group Retrospective
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* [Zulip stream] or read on the [Zulip archive](https://zulip-archive.rust-lang.org/131828tcompiler/82575designmeeting20191112.html)
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[Zulip stream]: https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/design.20meeting.202019-11-12
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## What you are looking at
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We did a [short survey](https://forms.gle/PmZVgsAWZckceT3Y6) before
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the meeting. The following notes were scraped from the 10 responses. I
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tried to de-duplicate common items. Towards the end, you will find
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some minutes that were taken during the meeting itself. --nikomatsakis
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## Things to KEEP doing
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* Working groups are useful
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* Nice to know who to talk to in order to get involved
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* this was more of a struggle before
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* Providing opportunities for mentorship is good
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* Scoping out small groups of decision makers for "in the weeds" decisions
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* Weekly updates
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* Dedicated Zulip streams: great to have ability to link/skim, even if most are muted
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* Regular meetings are a good way to keep working groups focused
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## Things to STOP doing
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* Maybe fewer working groups, with more time/energy invested in each?
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* Some of the smaller WGs don't see much activity, could discourage people
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## Things to START
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* Check in with WGs not just about achievements but process
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* e.g., diagnostics and mir-opt don't have any meetings
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* Question from editor: Not clear if the idea here is to try and have a more uniform process across teao use that as a signal that help may be needed
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* yes, that's what I meant
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* which is what you meant? :)
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* Improve our labeling system
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* Tag PRs with WG-XXX instead?
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> [name=Centril] Instead or both? We (T-release) can still use A-* labels.
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> [name=Felix S Klock II] I worry about *switching* to this (rather than the A-categories) because it can mean that multiple WG's get pings for incidental stuff...? I guess the labels don't actually cause pings so maybe that doesn't matter. Another potential issue (again that arises from multiple WG-labels on one issue) is that it can become ambiguous *which* WG should be taking lead on something.
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* Proactive recruitment for specific working groups?
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* Devise metrics to evaluate effectiveness?
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* [name=Centril] What would those metrics be (also... performance reviews? ^^ Rust is not a company; heh)
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* Should WGs create those?
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* Figure out the "wind down" process (e.g., for groups like NLL and pipelined compilation)
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* Do we need to document which members are responsible for long-term maintenance?
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* Consider e.g. NLL
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* How to ensure the remaining work gets done? A lot of it is falling to Matthew Jasper for NLL, is that ok?
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* Some better way to advertise what we are doing
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## Things to IMPROVE
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* Longer timeslot in compiler team triage meeting (maybe just a few minutes)
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* More time for discussion or Q&A related to plans, progress, etc
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> [name=Felix S Klock II] maybe if we just moved it to the begining but had a hard limit on time?
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* Onboarding could still be improved
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* Some better way to get a sense of status without participation in every compiler team meeting
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* Maybe use Inside Rust blog or other means to make more regular public announcements
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* Maybe a regular (but less frequent) time when *all* groups can check-in
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* Require explicitly documented leaders, some older WGs are missing them
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* Improve use of WG labels:
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* the set of github WG labels and actual WGs do not correspond in a meaningful fashion
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* Hard to know when to use the A label vs WG
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- [name=Centril] This is primarily a matter for T-release triage. When in doubt, use both labels.
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* Distinction between shorter and longer term groups
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* maybe use distinct terms
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* add metadata indicating this
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* Help ensure that each working group has active leadership, which makes a big difference
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* hard to find people with enough time
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* maybe we can help leaders?
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* multiple leads are good
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* [name=mw] +1! [name=Centril] +1
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* More involvement from the lang team on Zulip is useful, developing a better working relationship between lang and compiler team would be good
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* [name=Centril] The lang team recently "moved" to Zulip
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* [name=Centril] Narrowing the funnel through which T-lang adds new work to T-compiler's queue would be good
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* Relationship between triaging wg (from release team) and compiler team
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*
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* More retrospectives to help us reflect on how things are going!
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* compiler-team web pages feel like they could be better
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* templates are not that useful
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* would be nice to have the updates there
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* overhead of maintaining all the web pages and other things feels too high
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* can we post updates in a more central fashion?
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* fold the activity of "regular contributors" into the working groups more
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## Other things
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* don't generalize too much from NLL, it was a big prominent lang feature with lots of interest
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## notes and ideas from meeting
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The following notes and conclusions were extracted during the meeting. For more details,
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please see the complete [Zulip stream].
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### discussing check-in and how to keep the info up to date
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* maybe a zulip stream that people can post updates to
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* perhaps with bot support to scrape and collate
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* this would land in github in the form of meeting minutes
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* but it would also make it easy to catch up on the status
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* make a point to help WGs develop roadmaps
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* helps to frame check-ins
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* metrics?
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* but what? and let's not try to make this too much like a company
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* wind-down
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* things like NLL are winding down but it doesn't feel very organized
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* even the concept of wind-down requires more work on roadmaps, so this ties in with the point above
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* maybe the next step for winding down is to try and use that process, but aimed more at finding the work left to be done
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* goal: "what did we get done, what's left, and -- if it matters -- who will do it"
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* kinds of working groups
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* groups doing manual, recurring tasks and upkeep
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* groups around an area of the code ("WG-NLL", "WG-mir-opt")
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* project groups with a pretty clear goal ("WG-NLL")
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* maybe projects are things that "area-based groups" do?
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* groups to ping people ("ICE-breakers", "WG-rollups")
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* labels
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* some way to indicate that the issue has been triaged by a given wg (e.g., `AsyncAwait-Triaged`)
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* follow-up topics to drill into more
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* creation of wgs is undocumented
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* there are ongoing activities that it would be great to "capture" in a WG
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* designation of kinds of working groups didn't reach much of a conclusion

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