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add logs and minutes for last meeting #203

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2018-09-04 20:02:26 ~japaric ok, let's start this meeting!
2018-09-04 20:02:32 ~japaric first two reminders
2018-09-04 20:02:42 ~japaric 1) vote on [RFC] initial Cortex-R team -- https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/pull/199
2018-09-04 20:02:50 ~japaric if you haven't already
2018-09-04 20:03:03 ~japaric 2) review infrastructure changes (if you are familiar with ops stuff) -- https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/156#issuecomment-418196668
2018-09-04 20:03:20 -- Mode #rust-embedded [+o ithinuel] by ChanServ
2018-09-04 20:03:24 @ithinuel Hi there
2018-09-04 20:03:35 @ithinuel Sorry for being late
2018-09-04 20:03:39 ~japaric the first item on the agenda is triaging issues that need be done for the milestone
2018-09-04 20:03:44 ~japaric ithinuel: we just started :-)
2018-09-04 20:04:14 ~japaric for the edition milestone**
2018-09-04 20:04:20 ~japaric I have written all the edition issues in the etherpad
2018-09-04 20:04:35 ~japaric along with their current status and how's currently working on them
2018-09-04 20:04:47 ~japaric let's go over each of them
2018-09-04 20:05:02 ~japaric Book: Introduction
2018-09-04 20:05:08 ~japaric the GH link is missing
2018-09-04 20:05:28 ~japaric https://github.com/rust-embedded/book/issues/3
2018-09-04 20:06:03 ~japaric we need someone to work on this
2018-09-04 20:06:10 ~japaric jamesmunns: are you actively working on this one?
2018-09-04 20:06:36 jamesmunns Not actively on the intro
2018-09-04 20:06:59 jamesmunns I marked the sections in progress from me ATM
2018-09-04 20:07:12 ~japaric anyone wants to volunteer to look work on this or look over it?
2018-09-04 20:07:23 ~japaric volunteer to work on this**
2018-09-04 20:07:37 @therealprof I'm such a terrible writer but I'd be happy to proof it.
2018-09-04 20:07:50 jamesmunns Happy to mentor anyone :) This one is partially implemented, but needs some filling out
2018-09-04 20:07:53 @therealprof What about pinging Nicoretti?
2018-09-04 20:08:27 ~japaric therealprof: sgtm, could you ping them?
2018-09-04 20:08:40 ~japaric therealprof: jamesmunns can I assign the issue to you as mentors / reviewers?
2018-09-04 20:08:48 @therealprof Doing it right away.
2018-09-04 20:08:59 jamesmunns Yep, thanks!
2018-09-04 20:09:33 ~japaric alright, thanks
2018-09-04 20:09:39 @korken89 I can also help proof reading
2018-09-04 20:09:59 @korken89 I would like to help write as well, but have a bit too much outside this ATM to dare take on something big
2018-09-04 20:10:07 ~japaric korken89: thanks, I'll add you as a collab so you can review PRs
2018-09-04 20:10:49 ~japaric ok, the next issue is the second chapter about writing the first program
2018-09-04 20:11:02 @ithinuel <- terrible writer but up for proof reading as well
2018-09-04 20:11:04 ~japaric I'll pull in some text from a quickstart PR
2018-09-04 20:11:19 ~japaric so I think that one is good for now
2018-09-04 20:11:32 jamesmunns We may want to ping sekineh, he is working on the CI still, and actively looking at QEMU atm
2018-09-04 20:11:50 ~japaric jamesmunns: +1
2018-09-04 20:12:12 ~japaric I'll ping them
2018-09-04 20:12:21 @therealprof I'd be happy to expand on the quickstart examples if needed.
2018-09-04 20:12:24 jamesmunns Thanks japaric
2018-09-04 20:12:43 ~japaric therealprof: please knock yourself out :-)
2018-09-04 20:13:06 ~japaric ok, issue 3 is about the collections chapter
2018-09-04 20:13:13 ~japaric a draft was merged last week
2018-09-04 20:13:26 ~japaric we have to decide if we want to add something else to the chapter
2018-09-04 20:13:33 ~japaric but we can do that on the issue
2018-09-04 20:13:59 ~japaric next issue (4) is about concurrency
2018-09-04 20:14:13 ~japaric this one is empty; I planned to write about interrupts and critical sections but haven't had the time
2018-09-04 20:14:57 @theJPster I'm quite looking forward to this section :)
2018-09-04 20:15:05 @theJPster It's the bit I've found trickiest about Monotron,.
2018-09-04 20:15:07 @therealprof What's the foundation for that?
2018-09-04 20:15:15 @therealprof RT or RTFM?
2018-09-04 20:15:44 ~japaric unless someone wants to volunteer this probably won't see much progress in the next few weeks
2018-09-04 20:15:50 cja whoops, late
2018-09-04 20:16:11 @adamgreig I might be able to help out with that and a few other sections next week but definitely not this week
2018-09-04 20:16:18 @therealprof Sounds like we have a volunteer. ;)
2018-09-04 20:16:37 ~japaric therealprof: more general than that. I planned to write about when a critical section is needed and where you can use e.g. a spsc lockless queue
2018-09-04 20:16:54 @korken89 japaric: If you want help with core parts of RTFM I can help write there, though I currently do not have experience with the Rust version of RTFM.
2018-09-04 20:16:55 ~japaric I would be writing `unsafe` code that's actually safe
2018-09-04 20:17:06 @therealprof Ah, cool.
2018-09-04 20:17:13 @therealprof Oooh. :-D
2018-09-04 20:17:18 cja Is the issue to work on the doc, or have someone go through it to see if it's consistent/coherent? I recall an issue last week about the OSX side?
2018-09-04 20:17:22 @theJPster Does that include atomics too?
2018-09-04 20:17:47 ~japaric theJPster: I had nothing planned about atomics
2018-09-04 20:17:58 @theJPster I think they're an important part of concurrency
2018-09-04 20:19:06 jamesmunns brb
2018-09-04 20:19:11 ~japaric if someone wants to write about atomics that'd be great :-)
2018-09-04 20:19:11 @therealprof cja: Writing chapters…
2018-09-04 20:19:44 cja apologies, I should have dug in the backlog better
2018-09-04 20:20:01 ~japaric ok, let's move to issue 7 since jamesmunns is afk
2018-09-04 20:20:10 ~japaric tips for C devs
2018-09-04 20:20:12 @korken89 The nice thing about atomics is that they work more or less the same as in normal Rust, only on Cortex-M0 we do not have atomics sadly
2018-09-04 20:20:44 ~japaric no one's working on this atm. Any volunteers for writing this?
2018-09-04 20:21:51 ~japaric one of the topics is about cross compiling to embedded Linux; that should be too hard to cover
2018-09-04 20:21:58 ~japaric shouldn't be**
2018-09-04 20:21:59 @adamgreig I won't have time this week, but probably next week or after I'd be happy to have a go at this and the next one. if anyone else is interested please go ahead though.
2018-09-04 20:22:28 ~japaric adamgreig: thanks
2018-09-04 20:22:36 @therealprof I'm pretty much booked out I'm afraid… (also doing C stuff, grr…)
2018-09-04 20:22:58 ~japaric ok, let's revisit 7 next week
2018-09-04 20:23:07 @theJPster likewise, I'm afraid. Too many conferences!
2018-09-04 20:23:08 jamesmunns (back)
2018-09-04 20:23:23 ~japaric issue 8 is about mixing C and Rust code
2018-09-04 20:23:30 ~japaric no one's working on this atm
2018-09-04 20:23:39 ~japaric adamgreig may be able to work on it starting next week
2018-09-04 20:23:46 ~japaric any other volunteer for writing this?
2018-09-04 20:24:02 jamesmunns I will also ping spacekookie about it, who gave a talk at rustconf about this
2018-09-04 20:24:02 Lumpio- korken89: ...except on Cortex-M3 where LLVM seems to emit incorrect assembly sometimes which I discovered today
2018-09-04 20:24:06 Lumpio- But I can talk about that later
2018-09-04 20:24:24 ~japaric jamesmunns: thanks
2018-09-04 20:24:46 cja japaric: is there a single page with issues for today?
2018-09-04 20:24:47 @ryankurte I might be able to do a little on 8, though some of it is definitely over my head atm.
2018-09-04 20:24:57 @ryankurte s|some|most|g tbqh
2018-09-04 20:24:59 ~japaric cja: https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/embedded-wg
2018-09-04 20:25:16 @korken89 Lumpio-: :o Is there an tracking issue for this?
2018-09-04 20:25:21 cja thank you
2018-09-04 20:25:51 Lumpio- korken89: https://bugs.llvm.org/show_bug.cgi?id=38828 - I just filed it so it's unconfirmed on there but we went over the problem on #llvm and it seems to be an actual bug
2018-09-04 20:26:01 ~japaric ryankurte: I'll assign 8 to you so at least you'll be in the loop
2018-09-04 20:26:21 Lumpio- Might be good to keep in mind while working with atomics on Cortex-M3 for now
2018-09-04 20:26:21 ~japaric ok, let's move on
2018-09-04 20:26:35 ~japaric let's go over issue 5 and 6 now that jamesmunns is back
2018-09-04 20:27:05 ~japaric jamesmunns: I haven't had time to check your PR
2018-09-04 20:27:14 jamesmunns Issue 5 - I slightly mention embedded hal, and how the portability story works, but not much in depth
2018-09-04 20:27:22 jamesmunns maybe the intro page - ish
2018-09-04 20:27:45 awygle I would also like to help review, especially things around portability
2018-09-04 20:27:55 cja As someone new to rust embedded I'm happy to read anything written and provide feedback (being an intended reader, basically), but I'm not much help for writing the chapters myself tus far
2018-09-04 20:28:02 ~japaric I'll review the PR later this week. It'd be good if others reviewed it too
2018-09-04 20:28:21 jamesmunns PR is https://github.com/rust-embedded/book/pull/15 - if anyone wants to take a look :)
2018-09-04 20:28:53 jamesmunns There also used to be a "singletons" chapter, which I have renamed "peripherals"
2018-09-04 20:28:58 jamesmunns (it covers singletons)
2018-09-04 20:29:05 ~japaric ok, I think 5 and 6 should be well covered for this week
2018-09-04 20:29:11 jamesmunns There isn't an issue for that, I should probably make one for that.
2018-09-04 20:29:21 ~japaric jamesmunns: +1
2018-09-04 20:29:38 ~japaric jamesmunns: I have some notes about the global singleton pattern that I want to put into a PR
2018-09-04 20:29:46 awygle Where is the book outline located?
2018-09-04 20:29:48 ~japaric (peripherals are *owned* singletons; not the same thing)
2018-09-04 20:30:01 ~japaric awygle: sidebar https://rust-embedded.github.io/book/
2018-09-04 20:30:17 @korken89 Quick side note, is there a way to see book PRs rendered? Reading raw MD is a bit tedious
2018-09-04 20:30:20 jamesmunns japaric: happy to chat, or look at review comments, just let me know
2018-09-04 20:30:28 jamesmunns
2018-09-04 20:30:29 jamesmunns
2018-09-04 20:30:49 jamesmunns whoops: https://rust-embedded.github.io/book/
2018-09-04 20:30:53 ~japaric korken89: I don't think so
2018-09-04 20:30:58 jamesmunns oh
2018-09-04 20:30:59 jamesmunns prs
2018-09-04 20:31:04 jamesmunns sorry :|
2018-09-04 20:31:06 ~japaric korken89: you can view the rendered markdown in the PR
2018-09-04 20:31:16 @korken89 Just hitting "view" in the Github PR seems to work :)
2018-09-04 20:31:26 ~japaric yeah, that's what I meant
2018-09-04 20:31:28 @therealprof Yes, most of the times.
2018-09-04 20:31:54 ~japaric ok, issue 9 is about the outline of the book
2018-09-04 20:32:14 ~japaric but we need more content to see if we are going to rearrange the chapters or split chapters
2018-09-04 20:32:17 ~japaric so blocked atm
2018-09-04 20:32:47 ~japaric issue 10 is about https://github.com/rust-embedded/book/issues/10
2018-09-04 20:32:54 ~japaric which was not originally planned for the book
2018-09-04 20:32:58 ~japaric but seems useful
2018-09-04 20:33:00 ~japaric ryankurte: ^
2018-09-04 20:33:18 ~japaric in particular I'd like to put OS specific stuff about GDB and OpenOCD there
2018-09-04 20:33:28 ~japaric to not duplicate it in other resources like the book and discovery
2018-09-04 20:33:54 ~japaric thoughts?
2018-09-04 20:34:05 emilgardis I think that's a great idea
2018-09-04 20:34:14 jamesmunns :+1: and link to the book from discovery?
2018-09-04 20:34:40 @korken89 Sounds good
2018-09-04 20:34:43 ~japaric jamesmunns: yes, though I'm not sure if this should go in the book (appendix?) or be a separate mdbook
2018-09-04 20:34:58 @ryankurte I can't remember where but iirc #10/#112 was deemed too much for the book?
2018-09-04 20:35:02 @ryankurte Ahh, ^
2018-09-04 20:35:12 ~japaric I was thinking if more obscure like which OpenOCD .cfg file for this board could live there
2018-09-04 20:35:20 ~japaric in which case it would essentially be like a wiki
2018-09-04 20:35:23 ~japaric but edited via PRs
2018-09-04 20:35:33 ~japaric more obscure stuff**
2018-09-04 20:35:36 jamesmunns Not opposed to using mdbook as a wiki :)
2018-09-04 20:36:03 @therealprof Which board? The F3 disco?
2018-09-04 20:36:53 ~japaric therealprof: I recently worked with a RM42 board (Cortex-R core) OpenOCD didn't work out of the box. Had to look for some "IDs" (DAP_ID, iirc?) online to make it work
2018-09-04 20:37:16 ~japaric the ID was in the data sheet but the value you had to use depended on which revision of the chip you were using
2018-09-04 20:37:35 ~japaric that's the kind of obscure stuff I'm referring to
2018-09-04 20:37:49 @therealprof Ah, yes.
2018-09-04 20:37:52 @adamgreig sounds not especially rust related so +1 on having it not in the book
2018-09-04 20:37:55 @ryankurte I still think it'd be excellent to have a flow-chart esque resource for getting code onto board and debug out. Maybe specific board support (and supported boards) could be it's own book/sub-book/subsection?
2018-09-04 20:37:59 @therealprof Especially since the last release is really old.
2018-09-04 20:38:44 @ryankurte And then the actual support could refer back to the book for more general openocd/jlink/whatever parts?
2018-09-04 20:39:32 emilgardis I think a wiki would be more fitting for specific board support @ryankurte
2018-09-04 20:40:10 ~japaric emilgardis: but this debugging resource would be a wiki in mdbook format
2018-09-04 20:41:18 emilgardis Aha, I suppose that'd work for me
2018-09-04 20:42:04 @ryankurte Yeah, whatever works / the wiki proposal didn't get a lot of love last time / I'm happy with either.
2018-09-04 20:42:04 @ryankurte I'm mostly suggesting that the content here (https://github.com/rust-embedded/book/issues/10#issue-349356813) be separate from specific board support stuff somewhere else.
2018-09-04 20:42:50 ~japaric let's try to make a decision: who's in favor of an additional mdbook that covers the stuff in the above link ^?
2018-09-04 20:43:15 jamesmunns generally :+1:, any reason it is limited to just debugging, vs "embedded wiki powered by mdbook"?
2018-09-04 20:43:28 @korken89 +1
2018-09-04 20:43:28 @adamgreig I don't think it belongs in the main book, happy for it to be its own mdbook, could also be some sort of wiki
2018-09-04 20:43:34 emilgardis +1
2018-09-04 20:43:38 @adamgreig so let's say +1
2018-09-04 20:44:07 @therealprof +1
2018-09-04 20:44:42 posborne +1
2018-09-04 20:44:43 ~japaric jamesmunns: it could be extended into a embedded wiki in the future. I'm trying to get some initial decision right now; we can revisit the wiki idea
2018-09-04 20:44:44 @nastevens Take my vote with a grain of salt, but +1
2018-09-04 20:45:19 ~japaric that sounds like the majority of the present
2018-09-04 20:45:34 ~japaric now, who volunteers for writing this?
2018-09-04 20:46:36 ~japaric they don't have to write the whole thing at once. Starting with a skeleton (see book) is fine.
2018-09-04 20:46:43 @ryankurte I'm happy to work on the New Book (and I think there were others in the thread) ^_^
2018-09-04 20:47:16 @ryankurte What is the status of the debugging section in The Book, then? Separate issue to track what should be included there?
2018-09-04 20:47:18 @korken89 I can help with filling out, but I am a bit pressed for free time right now (and coming 2 weeks)
2018-09-04 20:47:38 ~japaric ryankurte: the issue would be moved into the new repo
2018-09-04 20:48:02 ~japaric ryankurte: I'll make a new repo and add you and /resources as collabs
2018-09-04 20:48:14 @ryankurte I'd still argue for some mention of programming / debugging etc. in the book, but, works for me!
2018-09-04 20:48:19 @therealprof Same. But FWIW I do have a lot of the hardware mentioned in the ticket here.
2018-09-04 20:49:13 DaQue_ I’m really new to rust. Any reason I shouldn’t be able to switch between using Xargo and the new method the nightly is using any time I want. A lot of beginner tutorial stuff still uses Xargo
2018-09-04 20:50:26 ~japaric DaQue_: short version is that you shouldn't use Xargo or follow material that uses Xargo
2018-09-04 20:50:35 ~japaric continuing the triage
2018-09-04 20:50:45 ~japaric next issue is 11, the embedded Rust showcase
2018-09-04 20:50:53 ~japaric the RFC was approved
2018-09-04 20:51:00 DaQue_ Thanks
2018-09-04 20:51:02 ~japaric but still need someone to implement this
2018-09-04 20:51:13 ~japaric any volunteer?
2018-09-04 20:51:42 ~japaric I think the hardest part would be finding a template
2018-09-04 20:51:55 ~japaric or we could start with just a README.md
2018-09-04 20:52:27 @theJPster Yeah I'd keep it simple. Content first, style second.
2018-09-04 20:52:45 @therealprof I really haven't had any time to check out the stuff and won't have for the forseeable future.
2018-09-04 20:52:53 ~japaric theJPster: are you volunteering? :-)
2018-09-04 20:53:15 @theJPster I mean you can write my name down, but I won't get anything done.
2018-09-04 20:53:18 @therealprof I do have some ideas for showcases though.
2018-09-04 20:53:45 ~japaric ok, let's revisit that next week
2018-09-04 20:53:50 @therealprof Just received my Anne Pro 2 and wanted to try the Rust firmware for it.
2018-09-04 20:54:05 ~japaric issue 12, before we run out of time
2018-09-04 20:54:08 emilgardis +1
2018-09-04 20:54:12 ~japaric stable assembly operations
2018-09-04 20:54:17 ~japaric i.e. core::arch::arm
2018-09-04 20:54:30 ~japaric I want to de-milestone / de-prioritize this one
2018-09-04 20:54:45 ~japaric since cortex_m::{asm,register} works on stable w/o gcc
2018-09-04 20:54:53 ~japaric and because I don't have time to push this over the finish line
2018-09-04 20:55:30 @korken89 I'd say it's fine to de-milestone it
2018-09-04 20:55:47 @therealprof +1
2018-09-04 20:55:50 @theJPster cortex-m includes interrupt control, right?
2018-09-04 20:55:59 @therealprof Yep.
2018-09-04 20:56:27 jamesmunns abstain, haven't spent enough time needing asm inline, outside of what cortex_m already offers
2018-09-04 20:56:37 @theJPster I mean, nop, wfi, cpsid/cpsie cover must use cases.
2018-09-04 20:57:01 @adamgreig yes the new prebuilt asm workaround helps a lot
2018-09-04 20:57:06 @theJPster (unless you hand-write your video generation routines, in which case cortex-m is never going to be enough)
2018-09-04 20:57:13 @adamgreig i assume we still really want those intrinsics landed by 2018 itself though
2018-09-04 20:57:15 @therealprof :-D
2018-09-04 20:57:25 @theJPster I'm +1
2018-09-04 20:57:42 ~japaric adamgreig: yeah, but they may not be stable for Rust 2018
2018-09-04 20:58:15 @adamgreig I guess they can land in any old compiler version thereafter though
2018-09-04 20:58:29 @adamgreig 'old' is a bit misleading there, I mean they can be part of the normal updates
2018-09-04 20:58:45 ~japaric editions are decoupled from std / core
2018-09-04 20:58:58 ~japaric so if the intrinsics land in 1.32 they'll be available to both editions
2018-09-04 20:59:01 @adamgreig yes, that's what I was clumsily getting at
2018-09-04 20:59:17 @adamgreig re-prioritising seems fine then
2018-09-04 20:59:21 @adamgreig de-*
2018-09-04 20:59:31 posborne +1
2018-09-04 20:59:54 ~japaric we didn't cover all the issues but the ones that we didn't aren't high priority; we can check them next week
2018-09-04 21:00:07 ~japaric thanks everyone for attending! See you next week
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