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add last meeting minutes and IRC logs #279

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2018-12-11 20:02:26 ~japaric ok, then let's start the meeting right away
2018-12-11 20:02:39 ~japaric first a few reminders
2018-12-11 20:02:43 ~japaric there's some PRs waiting for review
2018-12-11 20:02:50 ~japaric T-resources: r? https://github.com/rust-embedded/showcase/pull/5
2018-12-11 20:02:55 ~japaric T-tools: r? https://github.com/rust-embedded/cargo-binutils/pull/37
2018-12-11 20:03:07 @therealprof Sorry for being late.
2018-12-11 20:03:10 ~japaric also, the infra team is setting up the team e-mails!
2018-12-11 20:03:15 @therealprof (and having to leave early)
2018-12-11 20:03:29 ~japaric so please coordinate with your team and send the list of e-mails to the infra team
2018-12-11 20:03:38 ~japaric more details at https://github.com/orgs/rust-embedded/teams/all/discussions/9
2018-12-11 20:03:55 ~japaric adamgreig had an announcement about the stm32-rs org; want to do the announcement now or at the end?
2018-12-11 20:04:02 @adamgreig now is fine, thanks
2018-12-11 20:04:04 @adamgreig we have set up stm32-rs
2018-12-11 20:04:12 ~japaric \o/
2018-12-11 20:04:14 @adamgreig to host various stm32 rust repos etc
2018-12-11 20:04:17 ryankurte awesome!
2018-12-11 20:04:21 @adamgreig if anyone is interested in beign involved please shout and i will invite you
2018-12-11 20:04:21 @therealprof \o/
2018-12-11 20:04:28 @adamgreig exact details of how the org will run etc are tbc
2018-12-11 20:04:42 @adamgreig for now we have a bunch of the stm32 hal crates and the stm32-rs device crate repo
2018-12-11 20:04:51 @therealprof Got a lot of stuff already and a lot more to more soon.
2018-12-11 20:05:00 @therealprof *come
2018-12-11 20:05:04 ~japaric exciting!
2018-12-11 20:05:10 @adamgreig in related news stm32-rs 0.5 should be out soon with svd2rust 0.14 support
2018-12-11 20:06:01 @jamesmunns (I'm in a call so i'll be in and out, but nrf-rs 0.6 also released with 2018/0.14.0 :D )
2018-12-11 20:06:16 ~japaric jamesmunns: awesome
2018-12-11 20:06:20 @therealprof adamgreig: With the f1 USB fixes? ;9
2018-12-11 20:06:22 @therealprof ;)
2018-12-11 20:06:31 @adamgreig yea I'm going to try and get those and the other erported issues in first
2018-12-11 20:06:41 ~japaric ok, I think that concludes the announcements and reminders section
2018-12-11 20:06:46 @adamgreig thanks
2018-12-11 20:07:04 @therealprof +1
2018-12-11 20:07:14 ~japaric adamgreig: (might want to mention the stm32-rs org in the next newsletter)
2018-12-11 20:07:30 ~japaric let's now triage the leftover edition items
2018-12-11 20:07:33 @jamesmunns japaric: he's added it, I hope to do a catch-up newsletter this week
2018-12-11 20:07:45 ~japaric jamesmunns: +1
2018-12-11 20:08:00 ~japaric svd2rust 0.14.0 has been released so I think issues 1 and 2 should now be unblocked
2018-12-11 20:08:18 ~japaric iirc, issue 1 was about documenting #[interrupt]
2018-12-11 20:08:22 ~japaric so I have created an issue
2018-12-11 20:08:40 ~japaric https://github.com/rust-embedded/book/issues/98
2018-12-11 20:08:58 ~japaric and I don't remember what the TODO was for issue 2
2018-12-11 20:09:01 ~japaric examples?
2018-12-11 20:09:16 @therealprof Yeah.
2018-12-11 20:09:23 @therealprof Mind if I take #98?
2018-12-11 20:09:37 ~japaric therealprof: sure, I already assigned it to you ;-)
2018-12-11 20:09:43 @therealprof Hah!
2018-12-11 20:10:13 ~japaric I created an issue for the HAL examples https://github.com/rust-embedded/book/issues/99
2018-12-11 20:10:39 @therealprof Where would they go?
2018-12-11 20:10:42 ~japaric jamesmunns: therealprof: if you can fill in what the examples should be about that'd be great
2018-12-11 20:10:54 ~japaric fill in the issue**
2018-12-11 20:11:05 ~japaric therealprof: "they" = HAL examples? or?
2018-12-11 20:11:21 @therealprof Do we want abstract or concrete examples?
2018-12-11 20:12:04 @therealprof Yes. they == HAL examples
2018-12-11 20:12:34 ~japaric I think at some point we mentioned at least listing examples of PAC, HAL-impl crates, driver crates, i.e. names and links
2018-12-11 20:12:46 ~japaric but I think we should also show some code using them
2018-12-11 20:13:33 ~japaric re: where; they should go under the portability chapter https://rust-embedded.github.io/book/portability/index.html
2018-12-11 20:14:06 @therealprof Okay.
2018-12-11 20:14:13 @therealprof Will try to come up with something.
2018-12-11 20:14:26 ~japaric therealprof: thanks!
2018-12-11 20:15:34 ~japaric moving on, issues 3 and 4 are done
2018-12-11 20:15:37 ~japaric I'll remove them
2018-12-11 20:15:55 ~japaric ryankurte: any news regarding the debugonomicon?
2018-12-11 20:16:15 ryankurte no changes since last time I think
2018-12-11 20:16:54 ~japaric ok, but there's plenty of help wanted issues
2018-12-11 20:17:13 ~japaric hopefully the next newsletter will bring in some new contributors
2018-12-11 20:18:09 ~japaric last issue is the showcase
2018-12-11 20:18:16 ~japaric there's a PR up for review
2018-12-11 20:19:00 ~japaric and two TODO issues before we can start taking project submissions
2018-12-11 20:20:11 ~japaric not sure I will have the time for them this week though
2018-12-11 20:20:46 ~japaric next item in the agenda is the code snippet for the embedded webpage
2018-12-11 20:21:00 ~japaric there's been more suggestions since last week
2018-12-11 20:21:13 ~japaric but I think they are too long
2018-12-11 20:21:40 ~japaric the snippets on the other pages are a bit over 10 LoC
2018-12-11 20:21:49 @therealprof They could certainly be shortened, but I think it'll lose the message we're trying to convey.
2018-12-11 20:22:04 @adamgreig I am pro very short snippets
2018-12-11 20:22:07 @adamgreig we can link to longer examples
2018-12-11 20:22:18 @adamgreig but it looks bad on a nice webpage to have a full page height of code
2018-12-11 20:22:21 @adamgreig no one's going to read that
2018-12-11 20:22:52 @adamgreig a very short example that shows off some basic things, even if it omits some preamble and boilerplate, is better, I think
2018-12-11 20:22:56 @therealprof Yeah, but there's like at least 7 lines of boilerplate. And in three lines you're not going to get a lot done.
2018-12-11 20:23:04 @adamgreig so drop the boilerplate
2018-12-11 20:23:10 @adamgreig we don't need to see all the 'extern' and 'use' and etc
2018-12-11 20:23:21 @therealprof Then you don't have functional examples.
2018-12-11 20:23:31 @adamgreig fine
2018-12-11 20:23:41 @adamgreig you can't copy them into your text editor and click 'run' anyway, you need a cargo.toml and a memory.x and etc etc etc
2018-12-11 20:23:57 @adamgreig I'd rather there be a link to 'full example' or wahtever that has a full crate set up you can clone (a la stm32f4-demo)
2018-12-11 20:23:59 @therealprof I don't thing we should have snippets that are a good deal away from running.
2018-12-11 20:24:04 @adamgreig and the website snippet itself just highlights the interesting points
2018-12-11 20:24:19 @thejpster adamgreig: Yes, this.
2018-12-11 20:24:21 @adamgreig I think the point we want to make is 'check out these really nice things in embedded rust'
2018-12-11 20:24:29 @adamgreig rather than 'here's a long piece of code that you must dig through to find the golden nuggets'
2018-12-11 20:24:37 @therealprof Sure.
2018-12-11 20:24:54 @adamgreig I'm less sure what those nice things are though - static variables in a function scope are not going to blow a c programmer's mind
2018-12-11 20:24:59 @adamgreig that's just regular c
2018-12-11 20:25:12 @therealprof I think the abstractions are incredibly nice.
2018-12-11 20:25:12 @adamgreig likewise interrupt handlers in c are just functions with the right name, so again it's not a surprise (much as it's nice for us)
2018-12-11 20:25:36 @adamgreig yes I wonder if we want to just show off a hal or what
2018-12-11 20:25:47 @therealprof Not sure how to convey the safety and stuff.
2018-12-11 20:25:56 @therealprof Especially if we dumb it all down.
2018-12-11 20:26:01 @adamgreig some of that just has to be in prose I guess
2018-12-11 20:26:03 ryankurte i think the hal is a huge advantage / worth showing off
2018-12-11 20:26:19 ryankurte oh right, _just_, soz
2018-12-11 20:26:22 @therealprof If I were new to Rust I wouldn't be excited about basic register banging.
2018-12-11 20:26:48 ~japaric how about a short example of creating a driver that shows move semantics?
2018-12-11 20:27:00 @adamgreig that could be cool
2018-12-11 20:27:05 @therealprof Not sure what you mean.
2018-12-11 20:27:08 @adamgreig I like the idea of a snippet that is short and shows off one neat thing well
2018-12-11 20:27:12 ryankurte creating = wiring up?
2018-12-11 20:27:14 @therealprof And I'm afraid I have to go. ;)
2018-12-11 20:27:16 @adamgreig even if it doesn't show off every nice thing in the infrastructure
2018-12-11 20:27:30 ~japaric as in https://gist.github.com/japaric/34040a0be72cb3e67885253864295efb
2018-12-11 20:27:34 @therealprof bye everyone…
2018-12-11 20:27:40 @adamgreig seeya
2018-12-11 20:27:45 ryankurte byeee
2018-12-11 20:27:53 hannobraun bye
2018-12-11 20:28:08 ryankurte japaric: something like that seems good to me
2018-12-11 20:28:15 @adamgreig hmm
2018-12-11 20:28:30 @adamgreig sort of that but I'd want it to be clearer that nss is sort of a singleton
2018-12-11 20:28:43 @adamgreig like, show that you can get the pin objects _once_, and then _move_ them
2018-12-11 20:28:48 @adamgreig so you just can't write code that uses pins it shouldn't already own
2018-12-11 20:28:49 ryankurte especially if it can head off / explain some of the move semantic battles that anyone new to rust (or maybe anyone using rust ime) will have
2018-12-11 20:29:01 @adamgreig haha yes
2018-12-11 20:29:06 @adamgreig definitely not just people new to rust :p
2018-12-11 20:29:22 @adamgreig love moving pins back into my higher-scoped variables i just moved out of to return them to the previous type for the next iteration of my loop or wahtever
2018-12-11 20:29:28 ryankurte i swear some days i look forward to writing c
2018-12-11 20:29:42 @adamgreig only a fleeting feeling hopefully :p
2018-12-11 20:29:47 ~japaric we are at the half hour mark
2018-12-11 20:29:57 ~japaric let's continue the discussion of the snippets in the issue
2018-12-11 20:30:05 ryankurte +1
2018-12-11 20:30:07 @adamgreig +1
2018-12-11 20:30:13 ~japaric but let's try to make a decision by next week
2018-12-11 20:31:26 ~japaric ok, let's move to the next item on the agenda
2018-12-11 20:31:34 ~japaric 2019 roadmap planning
2018-12-11 20:32:11 ~japaric here's the list of requests from the 2019 wishlist survey: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HfVfSDTVD3Ao45_St1KkUyBe6M0vP6HjA2T-Xrc-E1Q/edit#gid=0
2018-12-11 20:32:25 ~japaric I noticed that most of them are actually stuff that needs to happen in one of the rust-lang/* repos
2018-12-11 20:32:42 ~japaric so we should try to prioritize those requests
2018-12-11 20:32:52 ~japaric I'm not sure all of them can be done in one year
2018-12-11 20:33:12 @adamgreig definitely a big variation in how much work they are too
2018-12-11 20:33:46 ~japaric I think that at the very least we should identify "must be done in 2019" requests
2018-12-11 20:34:09 @adamgreig and make that the list of things to work on in 2019?
2018-12-11 20:34:44 ~japaric not necessarily
2018-12-11 20:35:07 ~japaric we should bring a list of prioritized requests to the rust teams during the all hands and then we can discuss what can be done in the span of a year
2018-12-11 20:35:35 @adamgreig ok
2018-12-11 20:36:59 ~japaric any suggestion for how to prioritize the items on the list?
2018-12-11 20:37:12 ~japaric one metric is the number of upvotes in the thread
2018-12-11 20:37:38 @adamgreig that's not a bad starting point
2018-12-11 20:37:45 @thejpster What resources do we have to commit? I mean, an issue someone cares about and will actually do is more likely to get done than one that we all love, but no-one wants to do.
2018-12-11 20:37:46 @adamgreig I worry we could spend an hour just bikeshedding priorities
2018-12-11 20:38:07 @thejpster I mean, I'm doing #9 already.
2018-12-11 20:38:25 @adamgreig whereas I'm sure we might enjoy 7 but no one is volunteering :p
2018-12-11 20:38:30 @adamgreig uh, 18
2018-12-11 20:38:38 @adamgreig 7 is fine :p
2018-12-11 20:39:29 @adamgreig gosh, it really is mostly rust-lang issues
2018-12-11 20:39:51 ~japaric I meant prioritization of stuff that needs to happen in rust-lang/*
2018-12-11 20:40:21 @adamgreig can't think of any way that's materially better than votes from the issue
2018-12-11 20:40:43 @adamgreig we could have votes from wg members or discuss each one a bit to see if any are silly or whatever but for most of them I just don't know how much work would be involved or who would do it etc
2018-12-11 20:41:10 @adamgreig japaric: fwiw I think the filtered view doesn't sort the Who column
2018-12-11 20:41:28 @thejpster I gotta run. I'll catch up in 40 minutes when I get home.
2018-12-11 20:42:02 ~japaric adamgreig: it should now
2018-12-11 20:42:09 @adamgreig thanks
2018-12-11 20:42:16 @adamgreig other issue with votes is the earlier issues have more votes
2018-12-11 20:42:30 @adamgreig there's not really an overriding theme here either
2018-12-11 20:42:34 @adamgreig just a sort of grab bag of things we'd like
2018-12-11 20:43:12 ~japaric in any case, we won't know how much work is needed or who has to do the work until we talk with the rust teams at the all hands so I think we should prioritize on perceived impact rather than on amount of work required
2018-12-11 20:43:16 @adamgreig for rust-lang do we maybe pick like 10 top issues, vaguely by votes but editorialised by us or something, and put them forward at the all hands?
2018-12-11 20:43:24 @adamgreig makes sense
2018-12-11 20:44:10 ~japaric adamgreig: seems like a good starting point
2018-12-11 20:44:24 ~japaric let's continue this discussion on a GH issue
2018-12-11 20:44:27 @adamgreig ok
2018-12-11 20:44:31 ~japaric so other members can comment
2018-12-11 20:44:47 ~japaric adamgreig: could I ask you to make an issue for it?
2018-12-11 20:44:55 @adamgreig sure
2018-12-11 20:44:59 ~japaric adamgreig: thanks!
2018-12-11 20:45:33 ~japaric next item is per team roadmap
2018-12-11 20:46:16 ~japaric so apart from the rust-lang/* requests I think each team should make a roadmap or rather a list of things they want to get done this year
2018-12-11 20:46:55 ~japaric the roadmap should take into account the wishlist survery; though there's not much for teams other than resources and the hypothetical libs team
2018-12-11 20:47:41 @adamgreig yea, I guess the things for other teams are usually less visible
2018-12-11 20:47:53 @adamgreig or are just good ideas that pop into your head and you implement in c-m-rt, japaric :p
2018-12-11 20:48:11 ~japaric :-)
2018-12-11 20:48:13 @adamgreig an issue per-team to collate roadmaps?
2018-12-11 20:48:31 ~japaric yes, I think we should do that
2018-12-11 20:48:45 ~japaric the roadamp should include planned work for the repos under the team
2018-12-11 20:49:02 ~japaric and leftover edition issues where applicable
2018-12-11 20:49:09 ~japaric e.g. core::arch::arm for the cortex-m team
2018-12-11 20:49:47 @adamgreig yes, there's a bunch of c-m things we took shortcutes on for stable release that we can hopefully revisit or tidy up
2018-12-11 20:50:01 @adamgreig like the prebuilt object files and the code optimisation for bss and so forth
2018-12-11 20:50:40 ~japaric yep, so I think we should start with brainstorming a list of things we could work on
2018-12-11 20:50:51 @adamgreig can I put the 2019 wishlist spreadsheet link on the gh issue?
2018-12-11 20:50:52 ~japaric then we can make a decision and / or prioritize
2018-12-11 20:51:16 ~japaric adamgreig: yes, that ok
2018-12-11 20:51:28 ~japaric the link is view-only
2018-12-11 20:52:43 ~japaric let's make one issue per team to start discussing the roadmap
2018-12-11 20:53:09 @adamgreig ok
2018-12-11 20:53:13 @adamgreig I'll make a cortex-m and resources issue
2018-12-11 20:53:25 ~japaric adamgreig: thanks!
2018-12-11 20:53:25 @adamgreig or all of them, whatever
2018-12-11 20:53:30 ~japaric adamgreig: <3
2018-12-11 20:54:17 ~japaric last item on the agenda: end of year break
2018-12-11 20:54:40 ~japaric I propose we skip the meetings on Dec 25 and Jan 1
2018-12-11 20:54:45 @adamgreig +1
2018-12-11 20:54:51 @adamgreig I'll also be away next week
2018-12-11 20:54:58 ~japaric so next meeting would be the last on of the year; we meet next time on Jan 8
2018-12-11 20:55:13 hannobraun +1, wouldn't have made it anyway
2018-12-11 20:55:26 ryankurte +1
2018-12-11 20:55:56 ~japaric I'll mention this break again during the next meeting
2018-12-11 20:56:04 ~japaric 5 mins left; anything else you'd like to share?
2018-12-11 20:57:05 ryankurte There are a couple of new issues on embedded-hal I'm not really sure how to respond to, might be worth a look by y'all
2018-12-11 20:57:40 ryankurte I closed one just before as off-topic / directed them to the right place.
2018-12-11 20:57:59 hannobraun I've seen them. Didn't respond either. Kinda would have taken more spare cycles than I have right now.
2018-12-11 20:58:21 ryankurte yeah fair, i can politely respond and close just didn't want to overstep.
2018-12-11 20:59:07 hannobraun Well, my opinion is, if you're handling it and noone else is, you're not overstepping :)
2018-12-11 20:59:54 ryankurte cool cool cool
2018-12-11 21:01:30 ~japaric :bell: the meeting is officially over. Thanks everyone for attending! Have a great week and see some of you next week
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