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2018-12-18 20:01:14 ~japaric meeting agenda: https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Embedded-WG--AT~Rz_eRWa6PXjtabkNBsfQxAg-5pdv734N8KpxHFMJijuoL
2018-12-18 20:02:20 @jamesmunns yo!
2018-12-18 20:03:31 ~japaric ok, let's start this meeting
2018-12-18 20:03:41 ~japaric first some announcement and reminders
2018-12-18 20:03:58 ~japaric there will *not* be a meeting next week or the week after; next meeting is on January 8
2018-12-18 20:04:41 ~japaric there's a bunch of new discussion on the GH issue tracker; they are listed on the dropbox paper
2018-12-18 20:05:06 ~japaric so if you feel like doing WG stuff during the end of year break comment on those
2018-12-18 20:05:52 ~japaric korken89: you wanted to get some input on #281; want to cover that now or at the end?
2018-12-18 20:06:31 @korken89 Maybe at the end? I'm getting my notes on it
2018-12-18 20:06:37 ~japaric korken89: sure
2018-12-18 20:06:41 @korken89 Thanks
2018-12-18 20:07:01 @theJPster sorry I'm late
2018-12-18 20:07:05 ~japaric theJPster: o/
2018-12-18 20:07:47 ~japaric next up: leftover 2018 issues
2018-12-18 20:07:58 ~japaric therealprof: I saw a pr for the #[interrupt] stuff. :+1:
2018-12-18 20:08:26 @therealprof Yes. Was able to rework a number of crates, too.
2018-12-18 20:08:28 @korken89 It was a great start, only had some minor comments on it :)
2018-12-18 20:09:01 @therealprof korken89: That's a nice way of saying you didn't like japarics text copied from the exceptions section. :-D
2018-12-18 20:09:08 @korken89 Hehe
2018-12-18 20:09:09 @korken89 Shhh
2018-12-18 20:09:50 @korken89 I have as an aim over a few evenings to make a full reread of the book
2018-12-18 20:09:50 ~japaric :-)
2018-12-18 20:10:18 @korken89 I think it is time to start looking at the whole a bit, starting to become a lot :)
2018-12-18 20:10:33 ~japaric korken89: I agree
2018-12-18 20:10:39 @jamesmunns +1!
2018-12-18 20:10:41 ~japaric I should give it a re-read too
2018-12-18 20:11:11 ~japaric I think there are no other updates on the 2018 leftovers
2018-12-18 20:11:30 ~japaric jamesmunns: how's the book in rust-lang/rust PR doing?
2018-12-18 20:12:05 @jamesmunns No progress from last week, current status is that I have multiple mdbook versions coexisting happily, but the print.html renders bad relative links
2018-12-18 20:12:06 ~japaric iirc, I saw something interesting Cargo.toml hacks
2018-12-18 20:12:22 @jamesmunns in the embedded repo, we ignore print.html in the linkchecker
2018-12-18 20:12:42 @jamesmunns however they would like things to be right for the upstream docs
2018-12-18 20:12:52 @jamesmunns so I need to do one of the following:
2018-12-18 20:13:04 @jamesmunns 1. find a new way to use links in the embedded book
2018-12-18 20:13:17 @jamesmunns 2. teach mdbook the right way to render relative links in the print page
2018-12-18 20:13:34 @jamesmunns 3. customize the build step to post-process the print.html file to correct things
2018-12-18 20:14:02 @jamesmunns Very open to other options, I plan to dig into the mdbook source a bit to see if I can fix-fix it, otherwise will probably go with 1 or 3.
2018-12-18 20:14:28 ~japaric wasn't the problem in mdbook, itself? I think there was an issue about it (print.html)
2018-12-18 20:14:41 * cr1901 is here in the background
2018-12-18 20:14:44 @jamesmunns the Cargo.toml hacks were interesting :) I didn't realize you could use the dependency rename feature to include two versions of the same crate in one project :D
2018-12-18 20:14:44 cr1901 whoops
2018-12-18 20:15:06 @jamesmunns the problem is in mdbook.
2018-12-18 20:15:19 @korken89 Sorry for not quite following, does different parts of the book need different versions of mdbook?
2018-12-18 20:15:20 @jamesmunns option 1 is a workaround
2018-12-18 20:15:31 @therealprof japaric: Speaking about the book, I noticed that there's some rendered crate docs stores somewhere.
2018-12-18 20:15:36 @jamesmunns korken89: the other rust books rely on behavior in mdbook 0.1.x
2018-12-18 20:15:47 @jamesmunns while the embedded book relies on behavior in mdbook 0.2.x
2018-12-18 20:15:56 @therealprof The interrupt section links to that but it's too old to use for the #[exception] attribute.
2018-12-18 20:16:08 @korken89 Ah okey, thanks
2018-12-18 20:16:09 @jamesmunns so, my PR makes both of them exist, and you can set which version to use for each book
2018-12-18 20:16:15 @therealprof Is there any reason we don't link to docs.rs?
2018-12-18 20:16:20 @jamesmunns because updating all the other books would be a pretty big change
2018-12-18 20:16:44 @jamesmunns PR changes, if anyone is interested: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/56291/files
2018-12-18 20:16:50 @jamesmunns you can see my Cargo.toml hackery :D
2018-12-18 20:17:54 ~japaric therealprof: you mean there are links to rust-embedded.github.io that could instead point to docs.rs?
2018-12-18 20:17:57 @jamesmunns I've been pulled off focusing on some (sadly non-embedded) work stuff, hoping again to get this worked on this week
2018-12-18 20:18:03 @therealprof Yes.
2018-12-18 20:18:45 ~japaric docs.rs was kind of broken when we were working on the book so that may have been the reason; we should use docs.rs now that it has more maintainers
2018-12-18 20:19:39 ~japaric therealprof: want to make an issue about updating the links? or you could directly make a pr if there aren't too many links
2018-12-18 20:19:55 @therealprof japaric: Will do.
2018-12-18 20:20:00 ~japaric therealprof: thanks
2018-12-18 20:20:26 ~japaric jamesmunns: thanks for the update on the book pr
2018-12-18 20:20:44 ~japaric let's move onto the next issue: code snippets on the embedded webpage
2018-12-18 20:21:35 ~japaric I think there's agreement for using short snippets that may not compile out of the box
2018-12-18 20:21:49 @jamesmunns +1
2018-12-18 20:21:51 cr1901 +1
2018-12-18 20:21:52 ~japaric but there's still no consensus on what to highlight
2018-12-18 20:21:55 @jamesmunns happy with "real-ish"
2018-12-18 20:22:01 ~japaric the issue: https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/259
2018-12-18 20:22:12 @korken89 +1
2018-12-18 20:22:32 ~japaric the short examples are https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/259#issuecomment-446315435 (LED & exception)
2018-12-18 20:22:42 ~japaric and https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/259#issuecomment-446331189 (HAL & move semantics)
2018-12-18 20:23:22 @jamesmunns something like the main body of https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/259#issuecomment-445155459 looks good to me
2018-12-18 20:23:28 @theJPster I like the HAL/move semantics one. I think it's best to avoid interrupts, as doing it right is complicated.
2018-12-18 20:24:14 @jamesmunns For a first visit, I don't think we have to focus on teaching
2018-12-18 20:24:19 @theJPster the snippet jamesmunns mentions is also good.
2018-12-18 20:24:24 @jamesmunns Just showing them what it looks like, and not scaring them off
2018-12-18 20:24:35 @jamesmunns I think it would be cool to have a "guided tour" section of the book
2018-12-18 20:25:02 @jamesmunns Where we have a bunch of snippets like this, which introduce the syntax, and how to handle stuff like interrupts or ownership
2018-12-18 20:25:12 @jamesmunns I guess that's really just all the examples in the book already
2018-12-18 20:25:22 ~japaric "embedded Rust by example"?
2018-12-18 20:25:28 @jamesmunns yeah, pretty much that
2018-12-18 20:25:44 @jamesmunns Far be it from me to suggest another book :D
2018-12-18 20:25:46 @therealprof Getting tons of getting started questions from new contributors at the moment. Will try to extract some FAQ and general guidance out of that.
2018-12-18 20:26:01 @jamesmunns therealprof: awesome, from the stm-rs repos?
2018-12-18 20:26:08 @therealprof Yeah.
2018-12-18 20:26:49 @therealprof Folks are actually requesting another discovery like book but on a more entry level.
2018-12-18 20:26:51 @theJPster The feedback I had from my embedded training was that the HAL crate docs where great for telling you what stuff did, but useless for helping you work out which function you need on which object.
2018-12-18 20:26:54 @korken89 Ah, I have not kept up to date with stm-rs - need to take a look at that
2018-12-18 20:27:04 @therealprof theJPster: Yeah, that.
2018-12-18 20:27:45 @theJPster Going from "set this GPIO pin high" to working out you need to call split, then into_push_pull, and then set_high (which is defined in another crate entirely).
2018-12-18 20:28:00 @jamesmunns therealprof: like the embeddonomicon?
2018-12-18 20:28:03 ~japaric therealprof: I think it may be best to open an issue in /hal and have the hal team comment on it
2018-12-18 20:28:11 ~japaric (re common questions)
2018-12-18 20:29:18 ~japaric oops, I think we went too off topic
2018-12-18 20:29:31 @therealprof No worries, I'm trying to channel the momentum into appropriate lanes. :-D
2018-12-18 20:30:12 ~japaric should we go ahead and use therealprof's led snippet?
2018-12-18 20:30:25 @therealprof I have a question about doctests whenever people feel like it.
2018-12-18 20:30:26 ~japaric (just the main function probably)
2018-12-18 20:30:44 @korken89 Blink a led is a must :)
2018-12-18 20:31:09 @therealprof Oh, there's an updated version of the LED blink with the delay function using toggle, it's a few lines shorter. ;)
2018-12-18 20:31:39 @therealprof (and compiles to a vastly smaller binary, too, for reasons unknown)
2018-12-18 20:31:52 @korken89 Isn't toggle unsafe?
2018-12-18 20:32:05 Lumpio- Eh, what's an example without some unsafe code
2018-12-18 20:32:49 @therealprof korken89: Unsafe?
2018-12-18 20:33:05 ~japaric therealprof: could you slim down the example to around 10 lines and post in the GH issue?
2018-12-18 20:33:12 @korken89 Read-modify-write combination is not exception safe without interrupt::free
2018-12-18 20:33:37 ~japaric I think we are happy with the blinky example; what should be the other snippet about?
2018-12-18 20:33:48 @korken89 Just thinking if it's an issue, else I'm not against using toggle
2018-12-18 20:33:57 @therealprof japaric: Will do.
2018-12-18 20:34:01 @korken89 Simple snippets are important
2018-12-18 20:34:43 ~japaric therealprof: thanks
2018-12-18 20:34:45 @therealprof korken89: Depends on the implementation if it's "unsafe" or not.
2018-12-18 20:35:24 ~japaric should the other snippet be about a hal driver? saying in a comment that we didn't write the driver; just the hal implementation or something like that
2018-12-18 20:35:49 @korken89 therealprof: Indeed, just putting the thought out there
2018-12-18 20:35:51 @jamesmunns I've been using the DigitalOutput trait as an example in lots of places
2018-12-18 20:36:19 @jamesmunns Might tie into the demo, and act as a conversation piece towards what is possible with embedded hal abstractions?
2018-12-18 20:36:43 @jamesmunns s/demo/other example/
2018-12-18 20:37:53 ~japaric jamesmunns: but there are no drivers (afaik) that only use DigitalOutput; what should the other example highlight?
2018-12-18 20:38:04 @jamesmunns Maybe https://github.com/rust-embedded/embedded-hal/blob/master/src/digital/v2.rs#L3-L19 - with slightly reduced/modified comments?
2018-12-18 20:38:05 @therealprof jamesmunns: Which kind of driver did you have in mind?
2018-12-18 20:38:22 @jamesmunns Sorry, I was proposing not having a driver as the other example
2018-12-18 20:38:24 @therealprof japaric: Hm? There're a few.
2018-12-18 20:38:32 @jamesmunns instead just the trait definition
2018-12-18 20:38:41 @jamesmunns to keep it silly-simple for the first introl
2018-12-18 20:38:54 @jamesmunns So the focus is less on the syntax of rust (though it shows that a little)
2018-12-18 20:39:11 @jamesmunns and more on what you can do with rust (write non-implementation-specific drivers)
2018-12-18 20:40:53 @therealprof jamesmunns: Hm, I'd have to sleep over it. I have plenty of ideas but nothing that I think would fit in that format.
2018-12-18 20:42:26 ~japaric jamesmunns: I see what you mean but I don't think that DigitalOutput is a particularly good example -- something like I2C or SPI may make the idea easier to grasp, IMO
2018-12-18 20:42:45 @jamesmunns Open to that as well, as long as the trait bounds don't get too verbose
2018-12-18 20:42:49 @therealprof I agree.
2018-12-18 20:42:56 ryankurte +1
2018-12-18 20:43:23 @jamesmunns Oh sorry, it's usually the driver implementor that has crazy trait/generic items
2018-12-18 20:43:33 ~japaric jamesmunns: could you post your idea on the GH issue? let's discuss it online
2018-12-18 20:43:42 @jamesmunns sounds good :)
2018-12-18 20:44:02 @jamesmunns https://ferrous-systems.github.io/rustconf-james-2018/#/61 is an example I've used that makes a lot of sense if you're familiar with Rust, but less if generics and traits are new to you
2018-12-18 20:44:23 ~japaric next item on the agenda: 2019 roadmap
2018-12-18 20:45:12 ~japaric just wanted to point out that there's an issue for prioritizing rust-lang/rust requests
2018-12-18 20:45:20 ~japaric namely https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/269
2018-12-18 20:45:24 @theJPster what do you want us to do with that issue?
2018-12-18 20:46:42 ~japaric if you have thoughts on how to prioritize the items you can comment there
2018-12-18 20:47:40 ~japaric if someone can post the top voted items on the issue we can discuss there if you agree with the community perceived importance
2018-12-18 20:47:45 @theJPster Ah, it sounded like you wanted us to actually prioritise them in the comments somehow, and I wasn't sure what I was expected to say.
2018-12-18 20:48:11 ~japaric and if there's something that's not in the top 10 items but you think it's important then you can also comment over there
2018-12-18 20:50:30 ~japaric there's also one planning issue for each team; let's discuss the roadmap online and then try to summarize it by the next meeting (Jan 8)
2018-12-18 20:51:04 ~japaric korken89: I think now it's a good time for the issue that you wanted input on
2018-12-18 20:51:15 @korken89 Right
2018-12-18 20:51:24 ~japaric (before we run out of time :P)
2018-12-18 20:51:29 @korken89 If people have read it, most ideas are in
2018-12-18 20:51:55 ~japaric issue in question is https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/281
2018-12-18 20:52:01 @korken89 Since I come from the heavy metaprogramming of C++, and the embedded C++ community is heavily based there
2018-12-18 20:52:15 @korken89 A lot don't like it as well, but do not see any alternative
2018-12-18 20:52:28 @korken89 So I'd like to give them a talk to show that Rust can compete there
2018-12-18 20:52:54 @jamesmunns my macro/proc macro game is weak, but I am working on it :D
2018-12-18 20:52:58 @korken89 But I am no expert on proc-macros
2018-12-18 20:53:16 @korken89 I have learned enough to get attributes and derives
2018-12-18 20:53:23 @korken89 But free syntax proc macros are a beast
2018-12-18 20:53:25 ~japaric I don't know what C++ people use metaprogramming for
2018-12-18 20:53:39 @korken89 I wrote all of RTFM in metaprogramming :)
2018-12-18 20:53:48 @therealprof You don't want to know. :-p
2018-12-18 20:53:52 @jamesmunns neither do I, especially in embedded use cases
2018-12-18 20:54:05 @korken89 kvasir::register is a really good example
2018-12-18 20:54:12 @korken89 How to optimize volatile register read/writes
2018-12-18 20:54:16 @korken89 Safely
2018-12-18 20:54:24 @korken89 boost::sml
2018-12-18 20:54:32 @korken89 How to write statemachines using UML syntax
2018-12-18 20:54:38 @korken89 With compile time error checking
2018-12-18 20:54:54 @korken89 There is a lot in the library space :)
2018-12-18 20:55:04 @korken89 The magic in the background
2018-12-18 20:55:09 @korken89 Buut
2018-12-18 20:55:33 @korken89 What I'm looking for is someone with a bit more proc-macro experience to talk with
2018-12-18 20:55:39 @jamesmunns Maybe focus on the cool stuff you can do with Spans to give better error messages when the macro doesn't like the input?
2018-12-18 20:56:06 @korken89 Exactly
2018-12-18 20:56:10 @jamesmunns Might not be a whole talk, but might go on the list
2018-12-18 20:56:14 @korken89 Indeed
2018-12-18 20:56:26 @korken89 Especially to show that the code generated is very good as well
2018-12-18 20:56:39 @korken89 One of the major usecases it to make DSLs in C++
2018-12-18 20:56:51 @korken89 To give optimize what the optimizer can't understand
2018-12-18 20:57:10 @korken89 /give/
2018-12-18 20:57:39 @korken89 So if people that have worked with some proc macros have some good examples as well, please put a comment on it
2018-12-18 20:57:49 @korken89 I can convert Rust code to metaprogramming as well
2018-12-18 20:57:54 @korken89 To have comparisons
2018-12-18 20:58:00 @jamesmunns I'm a more C kind of background person, you're making me think of stuff like Xmacros in C
2018-12-18 20:58:10 @korken89 Hehe
2018-12-18 20:58:18 ~japaric I can't think of any proc-macro that aims for optimization; they usually aim for boilerplate reduction
2018-12-18 20:58:18 @therealprof I've come to start hating proc macros.
2018-12-18 20:58:19 @jamesmunns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Macro
2018-12-18 20:58:29 @korken89 Well, metaprogramming is used to give type-safe macros in a way :)
2018-12-18 20:58:48 @jamesmunns honestly, my best advice is to put out a nerd-snipe on twitter
2018-12-18 20:59:07 @jamesmunns just ask for the most insane use of proc macros for what you would use for C++
2018-12-18 20:59:17 @korken89 In @rustlang?
2018-12-18 20:59:28 @jamesmunns there are probably a lot of servo/firefox developers out there who have horror stories to tell
2018-12-18 20:59:33 @therealprof I'd rather focus on what kind of metaprogramming one can do with traits and without relying on macros.
2018-12-18 20:59:43 @jamesmunns yeah, tag @rustlang, hope they retweet it :D
2018-12-18 20:59:52 @korken89 Indeed, try to do static polymorphism in C++
2018-12-18 20:59:58 @korken89 Enjoy the nightmare
2018-12-18 20:59:59 @korken89 :D
2018-12-18 21:00:13 @jamesmunns I'll ask a contact of mine with more C++ experience, he might have some ideas
2018-12-18 21:00:21 @korken89 Awesome, thanks!
2018-12-18 21:00:38 @korken89 I will start putting some small ideas in the issue as well
2018-12-18 21:00:48 @korken89 I am traveling like crazy now, so a lot of time on planes :)
2018-12-18 21:00:52 @jamesmunns Also, I may end up at embo++
2018-12-18 21:00:56 Douman traits are good when everything made with traits and not like svd generated bindings with tons of structs without traits
2018-12-18 21:01:02 @korken89 jamesmunns: Yaaay
2018-12-18 21:01:38 @korken89 But yeah
2018-12-18 21:01:46 @korken89 I think I have rambled enough
2018-12-18 21:02:08 @korken89 I simply want to give a broader view to the embedded C++ community
2018-12-18 21:02:12 @jamesmunns +1
2018-12-18 21:02:13 @korken89 I come from there and don
2018-12-18 21:02:20 @korken89 't think I can go back now :P
2018-12-18 21:02:57 @korken89 So any ideas -> issue, that will be all :)
2018-12-18 21:03:01 @jamesmunns I feel totally the same about C :)
2018-12-18 21:03:08 ~japaric korken89: thanks
2018-12-18 21:03:25 @korken89 :)
2018-12-18 21:03:49 @korken89 Also I hope that if the talk is ok, I can improve and resend it a bit as well to spread the word a bit more
2018-12-18 21:03:58 @therealprof Quick question: Are there any working examples of embedded crates successfully using doc tests?
2018-12-18 21:04:07 @korken89 (quite common in the C++ community)
2018-12-18 21:04:29 ~japaric and with that the last weekly meeting of the year is over. Everyone, have great holidays and see you in three weeks
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